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That is kind of a two-sided question. While Paul was addressing them I also believe it can and does apply to all Christians in every day/century.
Again I agree it was written to 'them' however it can also apply to us. Let me ask you this. IF Paul's letter were ONLY to apply to people of that time period then why are they in the Bible if we also cannot read them as comfort, learning, encourgement, etc etc.?
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for *ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
*ensamples=sample, model, pattern
whom the *ends of the *world *are come.
*ends #5056=conclusion
*world #165=age
*are come#2658=arrive at
Note the word 'world' means age, not 'the world' itself.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the *world (#165 age) to come.
There is another 'age' coming. I believe Paul was fully aware of the fact and also knew the end of the age would not happen in his/their life time. Therefore his letters can apply to all 'ages.' (time periods).
So having said all of the above I'm afraid I must say I don't see much point in your exergsis. So having said what I believe I'm afraid I must pass on the rest of your post.
mshipmate: First of all, I never said that Paul's words don't have application to us and to all believers. In God's faithfulness to those saints of that day, we find comfort in His faithfulness to us. But that is not the context of the passage. They DO give us "comfort, learning, and encouragement." But they are not directed specifically at us so the fulfillment of the content is not for us but to those Thessalonian believers and their contemporaries. Again, you are making application before doing proper exegesis. What did Paul's words mean to those very Thessalonians of his day?
Paul DID know that the age to come was in his lifetime. See Ephesians 1:20-21. "He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and dominion, and every name that is name, not only in this age but also in that which is ABOUT TO COME (mellonti)." Also, Matthew 12:32 should read "age" and not "world." This is an unfortunate translation of the KJV but corrected in the NKJV. The word is NOT kosmos (world) but aion (age). The passage reads as follows: "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it willnot be forgiven him,either in this age or in the age ABOUT TO COME" (mello). Paul clearly knew of the age which was in His day ABOUT TO COME. And it came.
Here is the key to this entire passage--IF (as Paul states) those very Thessalonians were to receive relief from the persecutions they were then suffering in their flesh-and-blood bodies AT the very appearing of Christ, then He came in their lifetime! You cannot get around that. That is what Paul clearly wrote to THEM. IF Christ did not appear to those very Thessalonians to bring THEM relief from THEIR tribulation, then Paul deceived them and told them falsehoods!
I am sorry that you do not want to consider my post. Why is that? I am not trying to win an argument here--I am merely, as I continually do on these threads, trying to get people to first and foremost consider the audience relevance and the context of passages before they make applications. That is the proper hermeneutical process. Can we at least agree on how we are to study God's Word?
Is there anyone out there who will exegete this passage without reading into it (eisegesis) their preconceived ideas? What is the context--the who, what, when, where, how, and why? If it was written to the Thessalonians as you state (and I agree), what did Paul's words mean to THEM--specifically, in consideration of their present situation?
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 02-08-2009 at 10:32 AM..
This means that our loving, personal lord and savior...the light of light, the one for whom the world toils, will kill us, maim us, and gleefully torture us if we do not follow his teachings exactly.
That is very true, so I gave you a rep. It also means that Christians should shun other Christians when they do wrong and don't repent. And as shunning goes, sometimes the person shunned goes out and kills themselves, but that is okay because Judas hung himself. Anyway, that is what this means to me. Unless someone else can really go into detail about this and explain it differently.
That is very true, so I gave you a rep. It also means that Christians should shun other Christians when they do wrong and don't repent. And as shunning goes, sometimes the person shunned goes out and kills themselves, but that is okay because Judas hung himself. Anyway, that is what this means to me. Unless someone else can really go into detail about this and explain it differently.
Greetings Mattie Jo. Any thoughts on what Paul's words meant to the Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10? Thanks!
6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
I was replying to these verses, but when I read 2 Thes. it does not say this.
I was replying to these verses, but when I read 2 Thes. it does not say this.
May I ask what you think these mean Preterist?
Greetings Mattie Jo: I think you looked up the wrong passage. The passage I was interested in is 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 and not 3:3-10. Hope that helps.
...God is preparing us, in our suffering, that we may be considered worthy of His Kingdom. All who listen to what the prophets have been trying to teach us, from days of old, even until now, will be lifted up.
...If you do not know God, and are not prepared, nor do you obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, you will be punished for all eternity.
...I had to look up "exegete"......LOL!
Love.
Greetings Verna Perry: Please know that I am not trying to be mean-spirited, but your post is a prime example of how many Christians "interpret" Bible passages. They completely ignore the context--e.g. the author, the recipients, the historical setting, and the motive behind the letter and go immediately into application. But we cannot make proper application of a passage unless and until we determine the setting and occasion behind it.
While there are certainly applications for us, Paul did not write 2 Thessalonians because of OUR suffering but because of the suffering which those very Thessalonians were enduring.
The point is this--SINCE Paul was clearly stating that those very flesh-and-blood Thessalonians were to receive relief from their present suffering at the appearing of the Lord, then His appearing was in their lifetime. That is the clear impact of the passage. His appearing cannot be forced into another historical setting.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I was asking. Could you tell me the who, what, when, where, how and why of the passage? In other words, who wrote this letter and why? To whom did he directly write it and address it? What was happening at the time that he wrote? What impact would his words have had on those to whom he initially and primarily directed them. This is exegesis.
Thanks, Verna Perry! I look forward to reading the results of your study!
Preterist
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...LOL!
