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Anyone is welcome to take a stab at this, but I am particularly interested in how futurists, especially dispensational, premillennialists expound on it.
Anyone is welcome to take a stab at this, but I am particularly interested in how futurists, especially dispensational, premillennialists expound on it.
Thanks!
Preterist
Are these the vs. you mean and if so can you elaborate a bit just as to what it is you're asking? Thx.
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Are these the vs. you mean and if so can you elaborate a bit just as to what it is you're asking? Thx.
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Greetings mshipmate: That's a great passage too (2 Thes. 3:3-10), but I was looking for chapter 1:3-10. I look forward to hearing back from you. Take you time! Thanks.
...God is preparing us, in our suffering, that we may be considered worthy of His Kingdom. All who listen to what the prophets have been trying to teach us, from days of old, even until now, will be lifted up.
...If you do not know God, and are not prepared, nor do you obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, you will be punished for all eternity.
Accordingly, we ourselves boast of you in the churches of God regarding your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the afflictions you endure. 5 This is evidence of the just judgment of God, so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God for which you are suffering. 6 For it is surely just on God's part to repay with afflictions those who are afflicting you, 7 and to grant rest along with us to you who are undergoing afflictions, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 in blazing fire, inflicting punishment on those who do not acknowledge God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, 10 when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones 3 and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.
This means that our loving, personal lord and savior...the light of light, the one for whom the world toils, will kill us, maim us, and gleefully torture us if we do not follow his teachings exactly.
...God is preparing us, in our suffering, that we may be considered worthy of His Kingdom. All who listen to what the prophets have been trying to teach us, from days of old, even until now, will be lifted up.
...If you do not know God, and are not prepared, nor do you obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, you will be punished for all eternity.
...I had to look up "exegete"......LOL!
Love.
Greetings, Verna Perry: By asking for exegesis, I was intending to see an explanation of the who, what, when, where, how, and why of the passage. In other words, "who wrote it, why did he write it, when did he write it, to whom did he write it, where did the events take place, etc. Thanks!
This means that our loving, personal lord and savior...the light of light, the one for whom the world toils, will kill us, maim us, and gleefully torture us if we do not follow his teachings exactly.
Hi dcashley: By wanting exegesis, I was intending to have answered such questions of the who, what, when, where, how, and why of the passage--verse by verse.
Greetings mshipmate: That's a great passage too (2 Thes. 3:3-10), but I was looking for chapter 1:3-10. I look forward to hearing back from you. Take you time! Thanks.
Preterist
2 Thess. 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
I'm sure you understand this verse.
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Here Paul is, of course talking to the Thessalonnians, but I think 'we' have also had our share of tribulation and or persecutions. No?
5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
The victory we have over adversity can only come in the name of Jesus Christ. God wants people committed to Him, in these end days.
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Romans 12:19, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." God will take care of your adversary in His way and time.
7 And to you who are troubled *rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
*Rest in your faith: The time will come when Jesus and His angels will take care of all matters.
8 In flaming *firetaking vengeance on *them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a *consuming fire.
Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake *were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction *from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
At Jesus Christ's return Satan will go to the pit, and fallen angels will be placed in a location of holding for final judgment.
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) *in that day.
*7th trump. Christ's return.
Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
2 Thess. 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
I'm sure you understand this verse.
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Here Paul is, of course talking to the Thessalonnians, but I think 'we' have also had our share of tribulation and or persecutions. No?
5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
The victory we have over adversity can only come in the name of Jesus Christ. God wants people committed to Him, in these end days.
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Romans 12:19, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." God will take care of your adversary in His way and time.
7 And to you who are troubled *rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
*Rest in your faith: The time will come when Jesus and His angels will take care of all matters.
8 In flaming *firetaking vengeance on *them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a *consuming fire.
Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake *were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction *from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
At Jesus Christ's return Satan will go to the pit, and fallen angels will be placed in a location of holding for final judgment.
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) *in that day.
*7th trump. Christ's return.
Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Greetings, mshipmate: Thank you for your response. I notice, however, that it leaned more toward application and less toward audience relevance. I was hoping to get more of the who, what, when, where, how, and why of the actual situations that prompted Paul to write to the Thessalonians.
I think we would both agree that Paul is the author of this letter as he himself states that it comes from him, Silvanus, and Timothy (verse 1). The recipients are clearly spelled out in that verse as well--"to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Clearly, Paul wrote to living, breathing, flesh-and-blood people of his own day. Why did he write specifically to them?
Paul is addressing the strong and growing faith of those very Thessalonians of his day (ca. A. D. 50-51). He thanks God for them specifically. Though we today do experience some degree of persecution and tribulation in our faith, we are not Paul's primary concern in this letter. Agreed? To make proper application, we must first understand the sitz im leben or historical setting in which this letter was first written. In other words, the motive for Paul's writing centers on those Thessalonians who were enduring great "persecutions and tribulations" (verses 3 and 4).
What did Paul write to those first-century Thessalonians to encourage them in those very difficult times? Their suffering was to make them worthy of the kingdom of God (verse 5). What is the hope that Paul offers to them in their persecutions? God was going to repay or take vengeance on those who were troubling them in their lifetime. Who was troubling them? Was it not those very Jews whom Jesus condemned in Matthew 23? Those Jews whom Jesus pronounced guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth?" (Matthew 23, See also Acts 17; 1 Thes. 2:15-17). It was those of that day who were being "troubled" (verse 6). It was the horrible acts inflicted on them primarily by the Jews for which God was going to exact justice. We of this day or any of any other day are not in view here. That is the context. Paul promised those very Thessalonians of that day that they personally would be given "relief" (anesis) from theirtrials and tribulations!
When would they (and all saints of that day) get that relief? This is key. "when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (see Matthew 24). If those very Thessalonians were to be given relief from their trials and tribulations when the Lord came, then He came in their lifetimes. That is what the text plainly teaches.
This vindication of those Thessalonians (and by extension, all those saints persecuted during those days) came during the Jewish Wars between the Romans and the Jews when God dished out to those persecutors and murderers of the saints the very tribulations they had inflicted on His true people--the spiritual seed of Abraham, the Church! The persecutors became the persecuted. God came in vengeance against that generation of Jews (Matthew 23; Revelation 11:8, 16:6f, 18:20, 24). He vindicated His saints, the persecutors' house was left unto them desolate, their city was completely destroyed, and those unbelieving Jews who survived were dispersed as slaves throughout the nations. This was the Day of the Lord spoken on in Isaiah 2-4--the day of God's wrath; the day of His vengeance.
Those Jews of that day were guilty of shedding innocent blood (see Isaiah 2-4, which Jesus quotes in Luke 23). The martyrs of Revelation 6 cried out for this vengeance and judgment on their persecutors. God, as He commonly did, used one nation to punish another--He "came" in judgment.
Before we can make proper application of a passage, we must first fully understand the historical setting in which it was written. We must answer the who, what, when, where, how and why of the context before we draw applications to ourselves. Sadly, this approach is woefully lacking in many church pulpits. What do you make of the "you's" and the "we's" of this passage? Is Paul addressing us? If not, whom is he addressing and why? What is the historical setting?
Greetings, mshipmate: Thank you for your response. I notice, however, that it leaned more toward application and less toward audience relevance. I was hoping to get more of the who, what, when, where, how, and why of the actual situations that prompted Paul to write to the Thessalonians.
I think we would both agree that Paul is the author of this letter as he himself states that it comes from him, Silvanus, and Timothy (verse 1). The recipients are clearly spelled out in that verse as well--"to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Clearly, Paul wrote to living, breathing, flesh-and-blood people of his own day. Why did he write specifically to them?
Paul is addressing the strong and growing faith of those very Thessalonians of his day (ca. A. D. 50-51). He thanks God for them specifically. Though we today do experience some degree of persecution and tribulation in our faith, we are not Paul's primary concern in this letter. Agreed? To make proper application, we must first understand the sitz im leben or historical setting in which this letter was first written. In other words, the motive for Paul's writing centers on those Thessalonians who were enduring great "persecutions and tribulations" (verses 3 and 4).
What did Paul write to those first-century Thessalonians to encourage them in those very difficult times? Their suffering was to make them worthy of the kingdom of God (verse 5). What is the hope that Paul offers to them in their persecutions? God was going to repay or take vengeance on those who were troubling them in their lifetime. Who was troubling them? Was it not those very Jews whom Jesus condemned in Matthew 23? Those Jews whom Jesus pronounced guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth?" (Matthew 23, See also Acts 17; 1 Thes. 2:15-17). It was those of that day who were being "troubled" (verse 6). It was the horrible acts inflicted on them primarily by the Jews for which God was going to exact justice. We of this day or any of any other day are not in view here. That is the context. Paul promised those very Thessalonians of that day that they personally would be given "relief" (anesis) from theirtrials and tribulations!
When would they (and all saints of that day) get that relief? This is key. "when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (see Matthew 24). If those very Thessalonians were to be given relief from their trials and tribulations when the Lord came, then He came in their lifetimes. That is what the text plainly teaches.
This vindication of those Thessalonians (and by extension, all those saints persecuted during those days) came during the Jewish Wars between the Romans and the Jews when God dished out to those persecutors and murderers of the saints the very tribulations they had inflicted on His true people--the spiritual seed of Abraham, the Church! The persecutors became the persecuted. God came in vengeance against that generation of Jews (Matthew 23; Revelation 11:8, 16:6f, 18:20, 24). He vindicated His saints, the persecutors' house was left unto them desolate, their city was completely destroyed, and those unbelieving Jews who survived were dispersed as slaves throughout the nations. This was the Day of the Lord spoken on in Isaiah 2-4--the day of God's wrath; the day of His vengeance.
Those Jews of that day were guilty of shedding innocent blood (see Isaiah 2-4, which Jesus quotes in Luke 23). The martyrs of Revelation 6 cried out for this vengeance and judgment on their persecutors. God, as He commonly did, used one nation to punish another--He "came" in judgment.
Before we can make proper application of a passage, we must first fully understand the historical setting in which it was written. We must answer the who, what, when, where, how and why of the context before we draw applications to ourselves. Sadly, this approach is woefully lacking in many church pulpits. What do you make of the "you's" and the "we's" of this passage? Is Paul addressing us? If not, whom is he addressing and why? What is the historical setting?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Preterist
Quote:
I think we would both agree that Paul is the author of this letter as he himself states that it comes from him, Silvanus, and Timothy (verse 1).
Agreed.
Quote:
Paul is addressing the strong and growing faith of those very Thessalonians of his day (ca. A. D. 50-51). He thanks God for them specifically. Though we today do experience some degree of persecution and tribulation in our faith, we are not Paul's primary concern in this letter. Agreed?
That is kind of a two-sided question. While Paul was addressing them I also believe it can and does apply to all Christians in every day/century.
Quote:
What did Paul write to those first-century Thessalonians to encourage them in those very difficult times? Their suffering was to make them worthy of the kingdom of God (verse 5). What is the hope that Paul offers to them in their persecutions? God was going to repay or take vengeance on those who were troubling them in their lifetime. Who was troubling them?
Again I agree it was written to 'them' however it can also apply to us. Let me ask you this. IF Paul's letter were ONLY to apply to people of that time period then why are they in the Bible if we also cannot read them as comfort, learning, encourgement, etc etc.?
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for *ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
*ensamples=sample, model, pattern
whom the *ends of the *world *are come.
*ends #5056=conclusion
*world #165=age
*are come#2658=arrive at
Note the word 'world' means age, not 'the world' itself.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the *world (#165 age) to come.
There is another 'age' coming. I believe Paul was fully aware of the fact and also knew the end of the age would not happen in his/their life time. Therefore his letters can apply to all 'ages.' (time periods).
So having said all of the above I'm afraid I must say I don't see much point in your exergsis. So having said what I believe I'm afraid I must pass on the rest of your post.
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...LOL!
