Without the Holy Spirit (believers, Bible, baptized, spiritual)
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1 Corinthians 2:114-15 "But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can't understand us at all".
1 John 2:27 "But you have received the Holy Spirit, and He lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things and what He teaches is true, it is not a lie. So continue in what He has taught you and continue to live in Christ".
No one can understand the Bible with the Holy Spirit.
I agree. Before I received the Holy Spirit I would try to read the bible but could not understand what I was reading. I was so frustrated and would often just give up. I would go back and still could not understand.
But after I received the Holy Spirit it was like, oh I understand this now, but only because He opened up my mind so I could understand the things of God.
There are people out there who don't have the Holy Spirit and say that they understand but they don't. They may know what the characters mean and such, but want understand the spiritual meaning what they are reading and they will never hear God talking to them through the scriptures.
You can read it and have a head knowledge of it....but when you are born again, there's a 'knowing' of the Truth that follows. Whereby you can understand the scriptures because the One who authored them is your guide.
Oh.
So who is the guide in my "head knowledge" now?
If June doesn't have the "right guide" (for reasons that are not her fault, as she even questions who is to determine who, what where and when that guide should be) then how do you propose that June or any other nonbeliever eventually get there?
Would June have a different "guide" in the "before" and "after" sense if she somehow came to be "reborn?"
Is the goal to be "reborn" or to rely upon, trust in the guide? (Whoever and however one defines it.)
That is an important ("inter-connected") question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_2828
I agree. Before I received the Holy Spirit I would try to read the bible but could not understand what I was reading. I was so frustrated and would often just give up. I would go back and still could not understand.
There are people out there who don't have the Holy Spirit and say that they understand but they don't. They may know what the characters mean and such, but want understand the spiritual meaning what they are reading and they will never hear God talking to them through the scriptures.
Shawn: June understands that you feel you understand who does and does not understand based soley upon your understanding of what understanding is.
That's ok.
Gee, June used to think that if the holy spirit existed, then it "is." (In the ontological sense.) As such, if June is understanding now, and June is understanding then, then it would seem to June that whatever propels her understanding isn't going to undergo such a radical shift, if you will.
--How she interprets what she reads might.
But do not tell June that she is unable to understand based upon your definition alone. You'd be surprised what she does understand despite her writing out a post that virtually makes no sense at all in terms of understanding!
If June doesn't have the "right guide" (for reasons that are not her fault, as she even questions who is to determine who, what where and when that guide should be) then how do you propose that June or any other nonbeliever eventually get there?
Would June have a different "guide" in the "before" and "after" sense if she somehow came to be "reborn?"
Is the goal to be "reborn" or to rely upon, trust in the guide? (Whoever and however one defines it.)
That is an important ("inter-connected") question.
Shawn: June understands that you feel you understand who does and does not understand based soley upon your understanding of what understanding is.
That's ok.
Gee, June used to think that if the holy spirit existed, then it "is." (In the ontological sense.) As such, if June is understanding now, and June is understanding then, then it would seem to June that whatever propels her understanding isn't going to undergo such a radical shift, if you will.
--How she interprets what she reads might.
But do not tell June that she is unable to understand based upon your definition alone. You'd be surprised what she does understand despite her writing out a post that virtually makes no sense at all in terms of understanding!
Take gentle care.
I'm going to be honest, I don't have a clue to what you are trying to say. You kind of lost me. It sounds like you are saying that you understand scripture without having the Holy Spirit and you can, but not as the Holy Spirit directs you. The Holy Spirit can't direct you if you don't have Him.
Also if you don't have God's spirit in you, He can't speak or talk to you through His spirit through scripture.
If June doesn't have the "right guide" (for reasons that are not her fault, as she even questions who is to determine who, what where and when that guide should be) then how do you propose that June or any other nonbeliever eventually get there?
I would propose that June or any other believer Trust Christ and chose to follow Him. By entering into Christ through faith in Him, you will be 'reborn' into the family of God. But it's a serious decision with life-changing implications. It isn't for the faint of heart or for anyone who isn't willing to offer their bodies as a living sacrifice to the Lord. You have to walk away from self and into Him. It's difficult. And ongoing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th
Would June have a different "guide" in the "before" and "after" sense if she somehow came to be "reborn?"
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th
Is the goal to be "reborn" or to rely upon, trust in the guide? (Whoever and however one defines it.)
Both...and in that order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th
That is an important ("inter-connected") question.
Sorry folks . . . rebirth is ONLY as a real Spirit and that requires our real physical death (not metaphorical). When we are born of Spirit we ARE Spirit and are pure energy (no physical constraints). The Holy Spirit is the TRUE baptism provided to us ALL by Jesus that provides the inner guidance for the development of our embryo spirit through LOVE of God and each other. IF we follow that guidance we are spiritual embryo children of God (begat= "sons of God"). IF we ignore the guidance and fail to develop sufficient maturity . . . we will "miscarry or abort" upon our physical death . . . neither fate seems promising.
I interpret it this way:
When we are born of the Spirit, He quickens our human spirit and tunes it to His ways.
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:16
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1John 4:13
Thus we are reborn "in Christ".
That is not the rebirth . . . that is the baptism of Jesus that quickens our embryo spirit as children of God ("sons of God" = begotten) providing the capability to mature sufficiently to be reborn as Spirit upon our physical death. Ghosts (Holy or not) or Spirits only exist AFTER physical death.
Quote:
Having been born of the Spirit, we're able to perceive the things of the Spirit.
That is: to "see" the kingdom.
Having been given the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Jesus) we're able to perceive the things of the Spirit and have hope . . . IMO, of course.
I would propose that June or any other believer Trust Christ and chose to follow Him. By entering into Christ through faith in Him, you will be 'reborn' into the family of God. But it's a serious decision with life-changing implications. It isn't for the faint of heart or for anyone who isn't willing to offer their bodies as a living sacrifice to the Lord. You have to walk away from self and into Him. It's difficult. And ongoing!
Yes
Both...and in that order.
You're right.
Hi alpha,
I would agree with you totally here. I would just add one thought in regards to June's quesiton here:
Quote:
Oh.So who is the guide in my "head knowledge" now?
It is your own spirit, your mind, your thought process.
Sorry folks . . . rebirth is ONLY as a real Spirit and that requires our real physical death (not metaphorical). When we are born of Spirit we ARE Spirit and are pure energy (no physical constraints). The Holy Spirit is the TRUE baptism provided to us ALL by Jesus that provides the inner guidance for the development of our embryo spirit through LOVE of God and each other. IF we follow that guidance we are spiritual embryo children of God (begat= "sons of God"). IF we ignore the guidance and fail to develop sufficient maturity . . . we will "miscarry or abort" upon our physical death . . . neither fate seems promising.
So Mystic, am I understanding you correctly here? Are you saying we have to die a literal, physical death to be born of the Spirit?
So, if that IS what you're saying then how does that benefit us in this life?
So Mystic, am I understanding you correctly here? Are you saying we have to die a literal, physical death to be born of the Spirit?
So, if that IS what you're saying then how does that benefit us in this life?
It establishes the goal . . . to develop sufficient maturity of our "embryo spirit" by following the inner guidance of the Holy Spirit and that provided to us by Jesus's example using LOVE of God and each other to ensure the proper "state of mind" in all we do.
IF we are NOT reborn as Spirit upon our death . . . we have either "miscarried or aborted" . . . (neither of which are positive for physical embryos) . . . so I suspect they are not positive fates for our Spiritual embryos. Rebirth as Spirit is how we join Jesus and God who are pure Spirit.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-03-2009 at 02:02 PM..
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