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Ok the main thing that sticks out to me in Rev 1 is verse 19;
"Write therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
Now I know this may seem like beating a dead horse but it is believed this book was written between 90AD and 110AD which right off the bat negates the theory that all was fulfilled by 70AD.
Now there is nothing in the first chapter that indicates the rapture will take place let alone when it will take place.
Something else we must take into account is how long it would take for the letter to be spread to all the Churches named. Sometimes it took as much as four months for something to get from point A to point B, as a matter of fact according to some writings a trip from Great Britain to Israel at the time took a year by boat. I dont know how true that is but that would make for pretty slow sharing of new information.
Also we must take into account, and this is according to certain historical texts, John was the only apostle left alive when this book was written making him the end of the apostalic line.
Robin,
There are two other another place in chapter 1 that tells us all of this could not have happened already:
1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must *shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
*shortly means with speed. What it doesn't mean is that it was to happen at once, but when it does happen it will be quick.
10 I was in the Spirit on the *Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
*Lord's day. Many people mistakenly think John is say, "I was in the spririt on Sunday." But that is not what he was saying. He was saying, " I was in the spirit on the Day of the Lord." (See Isa. 2:12) The Hebrew terms which are equivalent to the Greek he kuriake hemera, the Lord's Day.
And what I do KNOW about preterist's teaching is: ALL THINGS HAD ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED!! Don't need to "JUMP" on their ban-wagon! Christ is STILL "due" for HIS final appearance, and SOME of us..................S-T-I-L-L have HOPE!!
Waiting on Christ Jesus.............................Final Answer!!
And again no Scripture! Betsey Lane, can we please exchange well-studied, biblical thoughts based upon sound hermeneutical principles? What saith the Scriptures--not our emotions and not what we want to believe.
Can you lay out a biblical, logical, consistent doctrinal position for your beliefs? Respectfully, many Christians simply grab things from here and there and try to fit them together whether they fit or not!
Will you not look at the Revelation with us--book by book and word by word and lay out for us your in-depth study of it? Have you done such a study? If not, how can you know that what you believe about the Revelation is correct?
Much of what I read on these threads consist mainly of "I believe" and "I think." I mean no disrespect, Betsey. I really appreciate your heart and your love for the Lord. It comes across loud and clear! I hope you never lose that! But we must go beyond what we believe and establish why we believe it or we are not on solid ground.
Robin,
There are two other another place in chapter 1 that tells us all of this could not have happened already:
1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must *shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
*shortly means with speed. What it doesn't mean is that it was to happen at once, but when it does happen it will be quick.
10 I was in the Spirit on the *Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
*Lord's day. Many people mistakenly think John is say, "I was in the spririt on Sunday." But that is not what he was saying. He was saying, " I was in the spirit on the Day of the Lord." (See Isa. 2:12) The Hebrew terms which are equivalent to the Greek he kuriake hemera, the Lord's Day.
Occurs 1Thess. 5:2; 2 Thess.2:2, and 2 Pet. 3:10
Great post I agree with your thought process. The Lord's Day would be a more specific time than just a day of the week and then the shortly you mentioned reminds me of "A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day."
And again no Scripture! Betsey Lane, can we please exchange well-studied, biblical thoughts based upon sound hermeneutical principles? What saith the Scriptures--not our emotions and not what we want to believe.
Can you lay out a biblical, logical, consistent doctrinal position for your beliefs? Respectfully, many Christians simply grab things from here and there and try to fit them together whether they fit or not!
Will you not look at the Revelation with us--book by book and word by word and lay out for us your in-depth study of it? Have you done such a study? If not, how can you know that what you believe about the Revelation is correct?
Much of what I read on these threads consist mainly of "I believe" and "I think." I mean no disrespect, Betsey. I really appreciate your heart and your love for the Lord. It comes across loud and clear! I hope you never lose that! But we must go beyond what we believe and establish why we believe it or we are not on solid ground.
Blessings in Christ, Preterist
Can we have you take on Chapter one, We are sincerly interested.
On a brighter note, anyone have a copy of The Footsteps of the Messiah? I highly recommend it as it goes through the whole book of Revelation in addition to all other prophetic books. It's a study of the sequence of end times events from the pretrib/premil/dispensational point of view. Here it is at Amazon: Amazon.com: The Footsteps of the Messiah: A Study of the Sequence of Prophetic Events, Revised Edition: Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum: Books I can't stress how important this book is to my studies. It nearly forces you to finger-walk through the Bible!
carolina_guy: How is preterism cold? May I ask a question without everyone getting upset? Is not futurism, especially dispensationalism, selfish? If the coming of the Lord is not in our lifetime, then we lose our blessed hope? Everything is about the dispensationalist. And we are called cold! What about those first-century believers who suffered the greatest tribulation the world has ever known (read Josephus to understand this!)? How much do dispensationalists ever acknowledge them? These are our brothers and sisters in Christ. When I read the NT accounts of their lives, I feel great compassion and love for them. Many of them suffered in ways we will never suffer. Let us appreciate and acknowledge them fully. We read Matthew 24 and think Jesus is referring to us. I mean, how could He possible mean anyone else? Forget those disciples standing right there with Him who are troubled and sick in their hearts concerning the things to come! yet we think Jesus is trying to comfort US!
We read the horrors of what the churches of the Revelation were going through and we apply it to us--those first-century churches are all but forgotten! For most dispensationalists (and I WAS a good one), we are the only generation that matters. WE will be rescued; WE will be "raptured;" WE will reign with Christ in some unbiblical earthly kingdom; WE will come riding back with Him when He conquers and destroyed. WE, WE, WE, WE! The "blessed hope" can only be for US!
Preterism is cold? Our Lord is victorious now! We reign with Him now! We live and never die; we die and yet live! The Lord is with us now always. But we are cold? That is a total untruth and a total misunderstanding.
Let's study the Revelation with open eyes and open hearts willing to let the words within it say what they say! I look forward to such an endeavor!
Preterist has given me an idea. We cannot all agree on the time frame of revelation and the rapture, so lets take it book by book, word for word if necessary and approach the end of the book in a civil dialogue.
I am sorry Robin, I really wanted to do this---as you said in a civilized manner. No one pushing their beliefs on anyone else...simply reading...I guess I didn't realize that the onset of this was to prove that preterism doesn't exist...I don't believe everything in the bible has occurred either...but don't feel like defending my views during the whole reading of the chapter.
I am sorry Robin, I really wanted to do this---as you said in a civilized manner. No one pushing their beliefs on anyone else...simply reading...I guess I didn't realize that the onset of this was to prove that preterism doesn't exist...I don't believe everything in the bible has occurred either...but don't feel like defending my views during the whole reading of the chapter.
Me too, Robin. I thought this could have been a great opportunity to help each other study and learn, but I must now decline, also.
Robin,
There are two other another place in chapter 1 that tells us all of this could not have happened already:
1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must *shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
*shortly means with speed. What it doesn't mean is that it was to happen at once, but when it does happen it will be quick.
10 I was in the Spirit on the *Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
*Lord's day. Many people mistakenly think John is say, "I was in the spririt on Sunday." But that is not what he was saying. He was saying, " I was in the spirit on the Day of the Lord." (See Isa. 2:12) The Hebrew terms which are equivalent to the Greek he kuriake hemera, the Lord's Day.
Occurs 1Thess. 5:2; 2 Thess.2:2, and 2 Pet. 3:10
mshipmate: Where did you get this concept of the meaning of takos (shortly)? Have you done a study of the Greek word takos (shortly) in the context of every text in which it is found in the NT? I have. In every instance it conveys the concept of soonness and nearness. NOWHERE does it simply mean that when someone was to do something he was to do it quickly whenever he got around to it. That is a redefinition not demanded by the word itself or the contexts in which it is found but grounded only in the necessity to uphold a particular eschatological position!
Let's look at some of the contexts of takos that I have studied. Of significance is the fact that in all of the following verses takos is used with the small Greek preposition en (en tokei).
Takos--Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, preceded by the preposition, en--"quickly, at once, without delay, soon, in a short time")
Luke 18:8--"I tell you that He will avenge them SOON" (en takei). What is the context here? In the parable of the persistent widow, the unjust judge avenged her in a timely fashion. God would also in a short time avenge those who cried out to Him (en takos). The meaning is not the quickness of movement God would use but the timeliness and promptness of His judgment. Again, this concept is NEVER absent from this word. Never!
Acts 12:7--" . . . an angel . . . struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, 'Arise QUICKLY'" (en takei)! What was the angel's concern in his command to Peter. Was he concerned about how quickly Peter leaped to his feet? No! The point of his words clearly convey the concept of promptness, soonness, and immediacy! Peter was to get up AT ONCE and follow the angel!
Acts 22:18--"Make haste and get out of Jerusalem WITHOUT DELAY (en takei), for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me." Here, again we see with takos the idea of soonness. This fits in nicely with the command to "make haste!" This is the Lord Himself speaking to Paul. By telling Paul to "make haste" and "get out of Jerusalem en takei, He meant for Him to do it now or as soon as possible. Do you suppose that Paul understood the Lord to be telling him that when he got around to leaving Jerusalem, he should do it in a rapid fashion. Was that the Lord's intent in saying "en takei?" No!
Acts 25:4--But Festus answered that Paul should be kept in Caesarea, and that he himself was going there SHORTLY" (en takei). When was Festus going--just some time in the future and when he decided to go, he was going to go very quickly? Was he going to run his horses at top speed to get there? There is no such meaning in these words! Festus was clearly going to Caesarea SOON!
Acts 16:20--And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet SHORTLY" (en takei). What is Paul saying here? Is he saying that whenever God got around to crushing Satan under their feet, He was going to do it in a very rapid fashion? That is utter nonsense!
1 Timothy 3:14--"These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you SHORTLY (en takei); but if I am delayed, I write . . . ." Does this speak of how Paul was going to come to Timothy or when? Notice that Paul wishes not to be delayed. Does he mean to express that he is afraid that when he comes to Timothy in a very rapid fashion that he hopes no one will slow him down and cause him to go slowly? Is that what he means? No! He clearly, in saying "en takei" (shortly), intended to let Timothy know that he hoped to come to him very soon! Again, the emphasis is on the timing and not on the manner.
Revelation 1:1--"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants things which must SHORTLY (without delay!--en takei) take place." It is only one's presupposition and preconceived ideas that gives takos here a strange meaning. Again, en takei, never draws attention merely to the swiftness of action or the manner of the action. Never. It ALWAYS, without exception, conveys an idea of soonness--the idea that something is about to happen! The same is true of Revelation 22:6. This whole issue is further clarified in verse 3 when John is told that the time is NEAR! What will we do with that--make a desperate appeal to 2 Peter 3:8?
Revelation 22:6--"And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angels to show His servants the things which must SHORTLY (en takei) take place."
How do we understand words in Bible passages? Do we do an in-depth study of how that word is used in other passages? Do we properly first of all seek to understand it in its most normal, common, everyday, usual meaning? Or do we simply run to a commentary or dictionary that will support what we chose to believe? Unless one has studied the passages in which this word is used and given full and proper consideration for the context, he should not suppose to understand the meaning of the word.
It is a rare person, I believe, who reads the word "shortly" and immediately thinks that it means quickness of action. It is natural for one to read that word and without hesitation take it to mean in a short amount of time. However, when one's sytem of interpretation and eschatological position is read into the word, then its meaning must be manipulated and redefined in order to fit!
John was shown those things which were in his day to shortly (i.e. soon) take place because the time was then NEAR. That is the meaning of this passage. Will we accept what the Scriptures clearly say and realign our preconceived ideas to it or will we stubbornly cling to our presuppositions and impose inaccurate meanings on simple words?
What "stuck out" the most in this chapter for me when it is said:
Rev 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near
John is being told to write the to the seven churches.
Hi, sherryturner: What do these words mean--"the time is near."
I apologize to both of you, sherryturner and mshipmate. I sincerely want opinions and beliefs shared, no one has to defend those beliefs and if I made it seem like you did, again I apologize but I sincerely want all aspects explored and not just taken fro granted. But I understand if you do not want to continue.
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