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Titus and Timothy outline the virtues of a Godly leader, and how to evaluate them. The authority to lead (in what ever capacity) comes from meeting these specifics. Scripture supports pluralistc leadership... at many levels.
Agreed! My question is why that is not being done?
There are a number of reasons for that of course but essentially I am of the opinion (and my experience if nothing else backs this up) that it's because leaders don't want to implement this. It's too costly for them to do so.
Better to stay with what is since their pay is based on maintaining what is.
Not all leaders are like that mind you. Some have given up a great deal to implement what the Scriptures say and my hat off to such men. But the majority of church (note the lowercase) leaders today are not of that calibur.
The problem, as I said before, is with existing church leadership. And that problem is not going to go away until flocks start holding leaders accountable to implement what the Bible says or leaders that hinder the work of God are somehow brought low and humbled such that they step aside to let God work.
The key for leadership is submission, not lording over. Authority for leadership is a product of submission, and yes other godly leaders must evaluate those who "want" to serve. Wanting to serve is a high calling and should be regarded as such.
Most leaders today don't want to serve. They want to promote themselves.
A leader should want to promote others ahead of himself. Such that if he leads in the way God wants them to lead that others will rise up to take their place. They will become less that God might become more.
Serving others until they too rise up to godly maturity and can lead themselves based on the character qualifications of Titus and Timothy.
Anybody know any leaders like that? Willing to replace themselves to the degree that they are effective in leading others to maturity in Christ?
I sure don't. They are as rare as finding gold on the ground.
Most leaders want to promote the status quo, promote themselves, or are too high minded to believe that their leadership may not be all that God would have it be.
=carlos123;7955335]My question is why that is not being done?
That is to "general" for me. I do agree there is evidence to support "not being done" and "being done"... but to what degree, I have no idea. I can and do speak about my home church.
I can and do have a responsibility to be part of the leadership of my own church family, and I take that responsibility very seriously. We all can be part of any church we choose, but we must first be a member. If we are not, then if what you believe is only your belief does that make you unbelievable? 2Co 10:12
So how does your church do leadership?
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There are a number of reasons for that of course but essentially I am of the opinion (and my experience if nothing else backs this up) that it's because leaders don't want to implement this. It's too costly for them to do so. Better to stay with what is since their pay is based on maintaining what is.
Costly? as in money? help me with this one.
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Not all leaders are like that mind you. Some have given up a great deal to implement what the Scriptures say and my hat off to such men. But the majority of church (note the lowercase) leaders today are not of that calibur.
Majority? ... but I agree that leadership is lacking. Wanna see a strong Church? with good leadership?(fruit) look at how many men attend compared to women. Look at how many men are doing the day to day tasks (in the church) and not women. Our wives/Women are having to make up for our failings as leaders in the home, at the job, in the church. Leadership begins with good godly men doing good for others... and that begins with their family. To not take care of your family is worse than a non believer. 1Tim 5:8
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The problem, as I said before, is with existing church leadership. And that problem is not going to go away until flocks start holding leaders accountable to implement what the Bible says or leaders that hinder the work of God are somehow brought low and humbled such that they step aside to let God work.
This statement is scripturally unsound. It is more of a statement of frustration (which I understand), so you will have to show me where your personal doctrine is derived from.
First and foremost... each of us must be accountable to another Christian man/men... or we are without understanding. If you want to see relativism at work, look at how a church responds to the congregation's every demand, twist and turn. Watch the pastor dance around sin, watch the elders do nothing but carry offering plates, and watch our wives and women having to do everything. The plurality of leadership and the responsibility to lead extends to all within the body. Again... leadership is serving not lording over... and if the body is demanding and not serving then the body is ill. Accountability starts with you and me... then we have the right to demand our leaders do the same.
Most leaders today don't want to serve. They want to promote themselves.
A leader should want to promote others ahead of himself. Such that if he leads in the way God wants them to lead that others will rise up to take their place. They will become less that God might become more.
Serving others until they too rise up to godly maturity and can lead themselves based on the character qualifications of Titus and Timothy.
Anybody know any leaders like that? Willing to replace themselves to the degree that they are effective in leading others to maturity in Christ?
I sure don't. They are as rare as finding gold on the ground.
Most leaders want to promote the status quo, promote themselves, or are too high minded to believe that their leadership may not be all that God would have it be.
Carlos
Well... I sure do know leaders like that.... and gold they are, but more importantly they realize their treasure is in heaven and they are storing up like a squirrel in a blizzard.
Leaders are easy targets, and satan doesn't waste his time on the "couch coma crowd", he's already got them. Was satan working the crowd when Jesus stood before Pontius Pilate? Now don't get me wrong to suggest leaders are on the same plane as Jesus, but what better way to divide the church then to divde the flock?
Same satan same tactic... and he does it because it works
Leaders are easy targets, and satan doesn't waste his time on the "couch coma crowd", he's already got them.
And unfortunately this compounds the problem, because it has the "leaven" effect. (1 Cor. 5:6-8) Unaccountability (and unconcern about unaccountability) among the laity breeds unaccountability and unconcern among the leaders, and on and on.
And unfortunately this compounds the problem, because it has the "leaven" effect. (1 Cor. 5:6-8) Unaccountability (and unconcern about unaccountability) among the laity breeds unaccountability and unconcern among the leaders, and on and on.
Leaders are easy targets, and satan doesn't waste his time on the "couch coma crowd", he's already got them.
Agreed.
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Was satan working the crowd when Jesus stood before Pontius Pilate? Now don't get me wrong to suggest leaders are on the same plane as Jesus, but what better way to divide the church then to divde the flock?
Same satan same tactic... and he does it because it works
I understand what you are saying Dave. For sure and I agree with you in principle.
But the reality, or at least the reality that I have experienced tells me that practically...the problem lies with leaders.
And that church leadership as it is presently consitituted won't budge or otherwise make way for God to be allowed to do what He might want to do in and trough the Body.
Let me give an example.
I recently got together with a pastor to talk about the possibility of getting involved in his church.
The church was somewhat unusual from the norm and I was somewhat interested in knowing more about it (though normally these days I don't give a Sunday emphasizing church a second glance or even a glance at all).
We got to talking. Good, good.
Then we got into some subjects that I had an interest in knowing his views on.
The denominational affiliation of his church was one. I don't mean the beliefs of his denomination but rather the fact that he felt a need to associate with a denomination at all.
He was of the belief that the spiritual gifts had ceased for today. I was of the opinion that they hadn't.
And I was asking about the possibility of whether I could be, within his church, everything God might want me to be in view of our differences.
The answer was no. Why?
Because I did not embrace the stand of his denomination regarding this or any other number of possible issues. I embraced what the Bible said and did not feel a need to embrace an extra set of doctrines, which I consider to be pet doctrines, of his particular denomination.
So in practice I could never, for example, be recognized as an elder (which is what pastors are and that's all they are...older Christians recognized as examples to the flock and allowed to exercise authority by virtue of their stable maturity per Titus and Timothy) in his church. Why? Not because I might not have the character as detailed in Titus and Timothy but because I did not adhere to beliefs that he felt were important (such as the gifts of the Spirit not being around for today).
Mind you I made clear that I do not have the character at present to qualify as a recognized elder. I have much growth that needs to occur before I get stable enough in character to qualify for such but what he said to me about that possibility made it clear that he, like so many leaders, was buying into the denominational lie, hook, line, and sinker.
He was adding an extra requirement to the qualifications of an elder listed in Titus and Timothy and forcing those who might want to become recognized elders to abide by his extra qualification (of embracing denominational emphasis and belief or pet doctrines) or not ever be able to be so.
That is what I mean. Leaders perpetuate the very thing that they give lip service to being against.
I have no problem at all interacting with other Christians outside denominational boundaries that might believe all kinds of things differently than me. Why is it that when stepping into denominational boundaries we must then encounter barriors to our free and unrestricted fellowship with one another? Boundaries that are artificially maintained by existing leadership who don't want to try and do things differently?
what shall we do then? make ourselves easy targets? or join together?
Together we are better!
As long as there are twenty churches in a town with the population of 15,000...each a different denomination...we are divided. It is that simple. We need to tear down the walls. Unfortunately, we accept these walls as the way things are supposed to be because of the "times" we live in.
So how do we join together? Attend a different denomination each week...like musical chairs?
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.... and gold they are, but more importantly they realize their treasure is in heaven and they are storing up like a squirrel in a blizzard.
