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What or who is a Christian Universalist? I shall just summarize for the purpose of this discussion that basically it is a Christian who does not believe in eternal hell for unbelievers. Like all denominations/sects/religions, there is not total agreement on all points of doctrine, but the basic belief is that God will reconcile all of creation to Himself (Col. 1:19-20). At the End Of All Things, God will be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:28)
I myself was not raised a CU, rather a traditional brand of non-denominational Christianity of the Charismatic variety. My family and friends all still believe this way.
I came to CU a few years ago after nearly a lifetime of struggle with my faith and the idea of a loving God condemning the vast majority of His creation to eternal torment due to a lack of understanding on their part. I then began to see how the Bible says, all through it, that God saves all in the end!
This question is directed towards my fellow Christian Universalists...
Do you think that some Christians NEED to believe in hell, and that God has concluded them in unbelief, so to speak, because they need that belief?
It just seems that many Christians I know, and that I have exchanged with on this site, simply can't see what is right in front of them! They have no answers for the 600 plus Scriptures that say, in one way or another, that God saves all! And no matter how it is put to them, it is if I might as well be speaking to a brick wall.
So I started wondering...has God blocked them from understanding this?
P.S. No flaming from non-CU's please. Yes, I'm fully aware that you think I am decieved and am leading myself and others to eternal hell.
For I always beseech the God of our Lord Jesus Christ--the Father most glorious--to give you a spirit of wisdom and penetration through an intimate knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened so that you may know what is the hope which His call to you inspires, what the wealth of the glory of His inheritance in God's people,
and what the transcendent greatness of His power in us believers as seen in the working of His infinite might...
Daddythreepointoh, I believe that God has to reveal this to them in His own time. I basically post for anyone who may be reading, wondering, searching. And I hope to share scriptural support for this belief and clear up misconception or incorrect portrayal of this belief. I have talked to some believers who said that they needed to believe in eternal hell in order to stay faithful to God. They felt as if they could not remain a believer and be faithful if the threat was not there. Then again, some cannot see for the incorrect Bible translations, what they have heard in traditional teaching, the whole idea of absolute free will, ect. I know that it did take me awhile to fully accept this truth because of what I had always believed, even though I had never studied to see if eternal hell was correct teaching. I basically assumed that this was the truth, because it was the accepted teaching. God revealed to me in His own time that He truly is love and that love will not fail. I believe that He revealed this to me when I was open to receive it. God bless.
Daddythreepointoh, I believe that God has to reveal this to them in His own time. I basically post for anyone who may be reading, wondering, searching. And I hope to share scriptural support for this belief and clear up misconception or incorrect portrayal of this belief. I have talked to some believers who said that they needed to be believe in eternal hell in order to stay faithful to God. They felt as if they could not remain a believer and be faithful if the threat was not there. Then again, some cannot see for the incorrect Bible translations, what they have heard in traditional teaching, the whole idea of absolute free will, ect. I know that it did take me awhile to fully accept this truth because of what I had always believed, even though I had never studied to see if eternal hell was correct teaching. I basically assumed that this was the truth, because it was the accepted teaching. God revealed to me in His own time that He truly is love and that love will not fail. I believe that He revealed this to me when I was open to receive it. God bless.
The **** will crow at the breaking of your own ego - there are lots of ways to wake up!
John Shea gave me those words and I understood them a little better recently as I stood in line at an airport: I'd checked in for a flight, approached security, saw a huge line-up, and accepted the fact that it would take at least 40 minutes to get through it.
I was alright with the long wait and moved patiently in the line - until, just as my turn came, another security crew arrived, opened a second scanning machine, and a whole line-up of people, behind me, who hadn't waited the 40 minutes, got their turns almost immediately.
My Heart Isn't Always Generous
I still got my turn as I would have before, but something inside of me felt slighted and angry: "This wasn't fair! I'd been waiting for 40 minutes and they got their turns at the same time as I did!"
That experience taught me something, beyond the fact that my heart isn't always huge and generous. It helped me understand something about Jesus' parable concerning the workers who came at the 11th hour and received the same wages as those who'd worked all day and what is meant by the challenge that is given to those who grumbled about the unfairness of this.
Are we jealous because God is generous? Does it bother us when others are given unmerited gifts and forgiveness?
Others Must Pay
You bet! And ultimately that sense of injustice, of envy that someone else caught a break, is a huge stumbling block to our happiness. Why? Because something in us reacts negatively when it seems that life is not making others pay the same dues as we're paying.
In the Gospels, we see an incident where Jesus goes to the synagogue on a Sabbath, stands up to read and quotes a text from Isaiah - except he doesn't quote it fully but omits a part. The text (Isaiah 61:1-2) would have been well-known to his listeners and it describes Isaiah's vision of what will be the sign that God has finally broken into the world and irrevocably changed things.
And what will that be? For Isaiah, the sign that God is now ruling the earth will be good news for the poor, consolation for the broken-hearted, freedom for the enslaved, grace abundant for everyone and vengeance on the wicked.
Notice though, when Jesus quotes this, he leaves out the part about vengeance.
Unlike Isaiah, he doesn't say that part of our joy will be seeing the wicked punished. In heaven we will be given what we're owed and more (unmerited gift, forgiveness we don't deserve, joy beyond imagining) but, it seems, we will not be given the joy of seeing the wicked punished.
The joys of heaven will not include seeing Hitler suffer. Indeed the natural itch we have for strict justice ("An eye for an eye") is exactly that, a natural itch, something the Gospels invite us beyond. The desire for strict justice blocks our capacity for forgiveness and thereby prevents us from entering heaven where God, like the father of the prodigal son, embraces and forgives without demanding a pound of flesh for a pound of sin.
We know we need God's mercy, but if grace is true for us, it has to be true for everyone; if forgiveness is given us, it must be given everybody; and if God does not avenge our misdeeds, God must not avenge the misdeeds of others either. Such is the logic of grace and such is the love of the God to whom we must attune ourselves.
Happiness is not about vengeance, but about forgiveness, not about capital punishment, but about living beyond even murder. It is not surprising that, in some of the great saints, we see a theology bordering on universalism, namely, the belief that God will save everyone.
They believed this not because they didn't believe in hell or the possibility of forever excluding ourselves from God, but because they believed that God's love is so universal, so powerful, and so inviting that, ultimately, even those in hell will see the error of their ways, swallow their pride and give themselves over to love. The final triumph of God, they felt, will be when the devil himself converts and hell is empty.
Maybe that will never happen. God leaves us free. But, when I, or anyone else, is upset at an airport, at a parole-board hearing, or anywhere else where someone gets something we don't think he or she deserves, we have to accept that we're still a long ways from understanding and accepting the kingdom of God.
Amen, Birdy. Can you post the link again? It doesn't seem to work. Thanks and God bless!
Quote:
The joys of heaven will not include seeing Hitler suffer. Indeed the natural itch we have for strict justice ("An eye for an eye") is exactly that, a natural itch, something the Gospels invite us beyond. The desire for strict justice blocks our capacity for forgiveness and thereby prevents us from entering heaven where God, like the father of the prodigal son, embraces and forgives without demanding a pound of flesh for a pound of sin.
We know we need God's mercy, but if grace is true for us, it has to be true for everyone; if forgiveness is given us, it must be given everybody; and if God does not avenge our misdeeds, God must not avenge the misdeeds of others either. Such is the logic of grace and such is the love of the God to whom we must attune ourselves.
Happiness is not about vengeance, but about forgiveness, not about capital punishment, but about living beyond even murder.
Happiness is not about vengeance, but about forgiveness, not about capital punishment, but about living beyond even murder. It is not surprising that, in some of the great saints, we see a theology bordering on universalism, namely, the belief that God will save everyone.
Quote:
Amen, Birdy. Can you post the link again? It doesn't seem to work. Thanks and God bless!
I can't throw rocks at anyone who doesn't see it because of the way it was revealed to me and those I "came to see it with" or "saw it with me", whatever.
The way the Lord dealt with me through the years along with the "hearing of the ears" through scripture, showed me that there is nothing too hard for Him. There is life in death - the way of bearing fruit is to first die.
We've discussed His will and His desire many times on this forum, but His heart - the Force that loves us, cares for us, deals with us, not just the abstract concept we debate but the living God - is so passionate and deliberate; His sovereignty needs nothing from us, but His patience outlasts the African dog which runs his meal down...after days of chase. He lets us decide, yes - after all, His ways are limitless how He might accomplish a thing - but the decision is soon revealed to be His will after all, and never does the subject stray from His grasp.
To sum it into a package is hard to do, as revelation often is; but death has never been an obstacle to Him, and the depths in our lives when all is lost and forgotten, always seem to be but a step into something greater.
He is the resurrection and the life - we don't yet know the depth of this truth.
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God bless.
