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"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).
David said: "Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).
"Beloved now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear, we shall BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as HE is pure" (I John 3:2-3)
When will we see him? When he SHALL appear?
John 5:
`Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.
Who will hear his voice? Those in the TOMBS... NOT those right next to him! They shall come FORTH to a RISING of LIFE!!
Death is described as sleep, because it is a temporary conditon. Those who dead will one day rise. God bless.
1 Thess. 4: 15for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, 16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, 17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1 Tim 6:13-16"Christ only hath immortality"
1 Cor 15:53"this mortal must put on immortality"
1 Cor 15:54"this mortal shall have put on immortality"
Believers receive immortality when, not before, Jesus Christ returns. Believers are said to be dead (1 Thes 4:16, "the dead in Christ"; 1 Cor 15:51,52; John 11:25). For believers, death is swallowed up in victory when Jesus Christ returns :1 Cor 15:54-57.
Quote:
The teaching that man is inherently immortal robs Jesus Christ of glory that belongs to Him for it is only through Him and His saving work that man receives immortality
J. Kirk
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-30-2009 at 09:02 AM..
Can you tell us about punctuation in the Koine Greek, Preterist?
kai eipen autw oihsous amhn legw soi shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw
From my limited understanding, I believe there was little or no punctuation in either the Greek manuscripts behind our English translations. As a matter of fact, there was rarely even a space between words!
There is a sense in which the punctuation that was added in our English texts is interpretive BUT when an expression occurs a multitude of times punctuated a certain way, one can rightly question when someone changes it, without precedent, to make the text say something other than what was intended.
In the text in question, IF Jesus actually said, "truly I say to you TODAY, you will be with Me in Paradise," it would be the only time out of many times when Jesus said "truly, truly I say to you" that He added the unnecessary and awkward word "today." To place the word "today," before the comma, makes Jesus speak in a senseless manner totally antithetical to His consistent precision and exactness. The emphasis of this verse is not upon WHEN Jesus said "truly, truly" but rather it is on the TIMING of when that thief would be with Him in paradise.
Again, the entire motive behind the JW mis-punctuation of this verse is an attempt to destroy the credible and established Christian doctrine that people live immediately beyond death and do not simply enter some unconscious soul sleep as the JWs wrongly teach! That very thief, at the very moment of his death, was consciously with Christ, "Verily, verily I say unto you,,,,,,,,,,,,,TODAY you will be with Me in paradise."
This is just from my simple mind, so I'm probably waaaay off, but just wanted to throw this out there.
What antredd said about the way Jesus used "truly truly I say unto you" makes great sense. So do the verses that say we sleep.
What if Paradise is just the place where people sleep? We know it's not heaven, and Jesus is now in heaven. Jesus went somewhere during those three days, maybe it was Paradise?
I know the bible says Jesus went to Hades to preach, but maybe He went to Paradise first, to "take" the thief there?
From my limited understanding, I believe there was little or no punctuation in either the Greek manuscripts behind our English translations. As a matter of fact, there was rarely even a space between words!
There is a sense in which the punctuation that was added in our English texts is interpretive BUT when an expression occurs a multitude of times punctuated a certain way, one can rightly question when someone changes it, without precedent, to make the text say something other than what was intended.
In the text in question, IF Jesus actually said, "truly I say to you TODAY, you will be with Me in Paradise," it would be the only time out of many times when Jesus said "truly, truly I say to you" that He added the unnecessary and awkward word "today." To place the word "today," before the comma, makes Jesus speak in a senseless manner totally antithetical to His consistent precision and exactness. The emphasis of this verse is not upon WHEN Jesus said "truly, truly" but rather it is on the TIMING of when that thief would be with Him in paradise.
Again, the entire motive behind the JW mis-punctuation of this verse is an attempt to destroy the credible and established Christian doctrine that people live immediately beyond death and do not simply enter some unconscious soul sleep as the JWs wrongly teach! That very thief, at the very moment of his death, was consciously with Christ, "Verily, verily I say unto you,,,,,,,,,,,,,TODAY you will be with Me in paradise."
Preterist
I agree with you whole heartedly. To be honest, this is nothing to be divided over, and yet Jesus made a promise so simply to the thief, that a whole religion has to try and prove Jesus wrong by moving a comma to fit their own doctrine. How sad. Even if the original Greek didn't use punctuation, my whole point is that Jesus told the thief that he didn't have to fear dying. Jesus was comforting him in that instant by telling him that after you die with me, you will be INSTANTLY with me in Paradise. If that weren't the case, then why make the promise that day, if the thief had to wait until a future day or time?
I agree with you whole heartedly. To be honest, this is nothing to be divided over, and yet Jesus made a promise so simply to the thief, that a whole religion has to try and prove Jesus wrong by moving a comma to fit their own doctrine. How sad. Even if the original Greek didn't use punctuation, my whole point is that Jesus told the thief that he didn't have to fear dying. Jesus was comforting him in that instant by telling him that after you die with me, you will be INSTANTLY with me in Paradise. If that weren't the case, then why make the promise that day, if the thief had to wait until a future day or time?
I agree! Where Jesus is - God is and therefore Heaven. God does not sleep. Jesus was saying - TODAY you will be with me/God/in heaven...the JWs do not believe in the Trinity so could turn words/meanings around. The King James or New King James, I think, are the best translations of the Bible.
I agree! Where Jesus is - God is and therefore Heaven. God does not sleep. Jesus was saying - TODAY you will be with me/God/in heaven...the JWs do not believe in the Trinity so could turn words/meanings around. The King James or New King James, I think, are the best translations of the Bible.
Plus the bible teaches that God is a God OF THE LIVING. To me, if we are just dead or in some soul sleep, that would contradict what the bible teaches about God being a God of the living, right?
Yes! Exactly antredd - once we see that God is foreverw nd Jesus is God - then we see that where he is there is LIFE/heaven - not some soul sleep. The JW's have problems because they have their basic theolgy wrong.
Yes! Exactly antredd - once we see that God is foreverw nd Jesus is God - then we see that where he is there is LIFE/heaven - not some soul sleep. The JW's have problems because they have their basic theolgy wrong.
And they will argue your down over this doctrine as well. All I can say is that the bible makes it plain as day, and when people want to read more into a verse or twist a verses meaning for the sake of religion, then they fall into all kinds of other problems in biblical interpretation. We all should be like the Bereans, read Acts 17:11, and you will see why it's important to read the bible for ourselves, with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT.
Hi Antredd, God is the God of the living, because we are alive in Christ and we will be resurrected. Death is not a permanent condition. This is why it is referred to as "sleep".
Quote:
For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).
David said: "Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).
It's clear to me that Lazarus was dead, if the Lord is going to wake him out of his sleep.
Quote:
"Beloved now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear, we shall BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as HE is pure" (I John 3:2-3)
When will we see him? When he SHALL appear?
Quote:
John 5:
`Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.
Who will hear his voice? Those in the TOMBS... NOT those right next to him! They shall come FORTH to a RISING of LIFE!!
Quote:
1 Thess. 4: 15for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, 16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, 17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1 Tim 6:13-16"Christ only hath immortality"
1 Cor 15:53"this mortal must put on immortality"
1 Cor 15:54"this mortal shall have put on immortality"
Believers receive immortality when, not before, Jesus Christ returns. Believers are said to be dead (1 Thes 4:16, "the dead in Christ"; 1 Cor 15:51,52; John 11:25). For believers, death is swallowed up in victory when Jesus Christ returns :1 Cor 15:54-57.
Quote:
The teaching that man is inherently immortal robs Jesus Christ of glory that belongs to Him for it is only through Him and His saving work that man receives immortality
J. Kirk
There are many believers who are not JW's who believe that when we die, we are actually dead until the Lord raises us. What is the purpose and promise of a resurrection if we immediately go to live with Jesus? God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-30-2009 at 03:15 PM..
[quote=ShanaBrown;9056955]Hi Antredd, God is the God of the living, because we are alive in Christ and we will be resurrected. Death is not a permanent condition. This is why it is referred to as "sleep".]
Shana, I really commend you on your effort. But . when I die, I WON'T BE CONSCIOUS OF ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD, BECAUSE I WONT BE IN THIS WORLD ANYMORE to be conscious of what's happening---GET IT?
My soul or body will go back to dust as the bible teaches, but my SPIRIT, WILL GO BACK TO THE LORD IN PARADISE. Remember what Jesus said before he died, into thy hands I commit my spirit Luke 23:46. Just based on that verse don't you think that a person reading that verse for the first time, without reading any other literature (ie JW literature or someone's commentary) would think that the verse deals with committing Jesus' spirit to the Father?
Another key verse that proves what happens to us when we die is in Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God,and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Just from plain reading of this verse, shows emphatically, without the help of JW literature or some commentary to explain away what that verse means, that Stephen would call on Jesus to RECEIVE MY SPIRIT because he understood that at that moment of his death his spirit would be going to be with the Lord in paradise, just as Jesus promised the thief.
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