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I started this thread to reveal something interesting about the New World Translation Bible mainly used by Jehovah's Witnesses. A person replied to my post regarding Luke 23:43 that says Verily, Verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise. She stated that we don't know where the comma should be placed, and I told her that I would agree with her if this was the only verse that said Verily, Verily I say unto you.
Just reading the context of this verse clearly tells us where the comma should be placed, especially in light of what the rest of Scripture teaches about being absent from the body PRESENT with the Lord when one dies.
What's interesting too is that this phrase is used 74 times in the bible? Just look it up in a bible concordance, and in all 74 times you will see that a comma is placed in the same place after Verily I say unto you.
Now what's so interesting, the New World Translation is the only bible that deems it necessary to place the comma in this verse after today, but keep the commas consistently after the phrase for the 73 other verses that use this same phrase. This makes me go hummmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Also to say Verily, Verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise instead of Verily Verily I say unto you, Today you will be with me in paradise, does not make good sense.
It would have been needless for Jesus to say, " Today I am telling this to you." Of course he was. What other day would He have been speaking of to the thief on? JESUS NEVER ADDED THE WORD TODAY WHEN SPEAKING TO ANYONE.
Hi Antredd, I have to respectfully disagree that the context of the verse tells us where the commas are to be placed. There are very many scriptures which speak of the dead being in their graves, of actually being dead. I believe that we are present with the Lord upon our death because He holds the keys to death and the unseen state, but I do not believe that we are consciously alive with Him. I also believe that there is a good case for the comma to be placed after the word today or this day, in light of other scriptures which have the same phrase or pattern in the Hebrew language. I have also read that "today" can also be translated as "this day" , some believing the it refers to the day that Jesus comes into His kingdom. The thief would be with Jesus in Paradise on the day that Jesus came into His kingdom. Thanks for sharing and God bless.
Other translations which have the comma placed after the word "today" or "this day"
Luke 23 39 And, one of the suspended evil-doers, began to defame him - Art not, thou, the Christ? Save thyself and us! 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, and said - Neither fearest, thou, God, in that thou art, in the same judgment? 41 And, we, indeed, justly, - for, things worthy of what we have done, are we duly receiving, but, this man, nothing amiss, hath done. 42 And he went on to say - Jesus! remember me, whensoever thou shalt come into thy kingdom. 43 And he said unto him - Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise. (J.B. Rotherham Bible)
Luke 23:43
And said to him the Jesus, Indeed I say to thee today, with me shalt thou be in the paradise (Emphatic Diaglott)
Luke 23
39 Now one of the hanged malefactors blasphemed Him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40 Yet answering, the other one, rebuking him, averred, "Yet you are not fearing God, seeing that you are in the same judgment!
41 And we, indeed, justly, for we are getting back the deserts of what we commit, yet this One commits nothing amiss."
42 And he said to Jesus, "Be reminded of me, Lord, whenever Thou mayest be coming in Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (Concordant Literal NT)
Hi Antredd, I have to respectfully disagree that the context of the verse tells us where the commas are to be placed. There are very many scriptures which speak of the dead being in their graves, of actually being dead. I believe that we are present with the Lord upon our death because He holds the keys to death and the unseen state, but I do not believe that we are consciously alive with Him. I also believe that there is a good case for the comma to be placed after the word today or this day, in light of other scriptures which have the same phrase or pattern in the Hebrew language. I have also read that "today" can also be translated as "this day" , some believing the it refers to the day that Jesus comes into His kingdom. The thief would be with Jesus in Paradise on the day that Jesus came into His kingdom. Thanks for sharing and God bless.
Greetings, ShanaBrown: Did you read what Antredd wrote? It is ALWAYS suspicious when an exception to an established norm is used ONLY in places which benefit the preconceived theology of a person or group--ALWAYS.
There is absolutely NO justification for claiming that Jesus was saying "Verily, verily I say unto TODAY, . . . " except to promote a theological falsehood or bias. No justification.
Clearly, Jesus said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, today you shall be with Me in paradise." JW "translators" moved the comma, despite the numerous passages that have it before "today" (as Antredd pointed out and which you ignored) for the sole purpose of twisting the Scriptures to their own ends. This is not the only place they have done so!
That very day, that very thief was with Christ in paradise. The Scriptures are clear.
Or, Preterist, what does Dr. Daniel Wallace (your Greek instructor for four years at Grace Theological Seminary) have to say regarding punctuation in Koine?
Clearly, Jesus said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, today you shall be with Me in paradise." JW "translators" moved the comma, despite the numerous passages that have it before "today"
What comma (,) did those rascals move?
kai eipen autw oihsous amhn legw soi shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw
Actually, the phrase "I say unto you this day" (or "...today") is "a common Hebrew idiom which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis" (E. W. Bullinger, Appendix 173, from The Companion Bible). Thus, it would not have been that unusual for Jesus to have said, "Truly I say to you today..." instead of applying the word "today" to the phrase which followed. His statement to the dying thief would certainly constitute a declaration with "solemn emphasis." Brother Curtis Dickinson wrote, "The Greek adverb here rendered 'today' appears in the Septuagint and the New Testament 221 times. In 170 of these places the adverb follows the verb it modifies. For example: 'I declare to you this day, that ye shall surely perish' (Deut. 30:18). Therefore, it would be natural to punctuate Luke 23:43 as follows: 'Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.' Paul uses a similar turn of phrase in Acts 20:26 -- 'I testify to you this day, that I am innocent of the blood of all men'" (The Witness, Vol. 30, No. 8, August 1990).
"In suggesting that the words of our Lord to the thief can only be understood by re-arranging the punctuation we are often accused of tampering with the text. This is a false accusation because any punctuation is an addition to the text. The correct punctuation can only be determined by comparing Scripture with Scripture" (A. W. Fowler, "Jesus' Promise to the Dying Thief," an article in Resurrection Magazine, Autumn 1991). Of course, when we compare Scripture with Scripture we discover that there is no way Jesus was with this thief in Paradise that day, nor do the Scriptures teach immortal soulism, or Hadean holding areas for disembodied spirits, or judgment and reward prior to the resurrection on the Last Day. Thus, the placement of the comma that best harmonizes with the teaching of Scripture is to place it after "today." "Thus, Jesus is not teaching conscious existence in paradise immediately after death in an intermediate state!" (Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Vol. 4). [LEFT]"This emphatic use of 'today' is a common idiom in both Hebrew and Aramaic which are the two Semitic languages in which the Old Testament was written. The idiom is used to introduce a solemn statement. 'I ... to you today' when the verb is one of declaration, testification, command or oath
Again, as I shared earlier, if the comma is to go before the words "you shall be with Me in Paradise" it could also refer to that time when Jesus returns, comes into His kingdom, glory, power as the word "today" is also translated as "this day":
"Verily, verily I say to you, this day you will be with Me in Paradise"
Hope that helps. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-30-2009 at 07:13 AM..
Just reading the context of this verse clearly tells us where the comma should be placed, especially in light of what the rest of Scripture teaches about being absent from the body PRESENT with the Lord when one dies.
When one dies and is resurrected. Mortality is swallowed up in life at the resurrection. (2 Cor 5:4, 1 Cor 15:51-54)
Quote:
What's interesting too is that this phrase is used 74 times in the bible? Just look it up in a bible concordance, and in all 74 times you will see that a comma is placed in the same place after Verily I say unto you.
Now what's so interesting, the New World Translation is the only bible that deems it necessary to place the comma in this verse after today, but keep the commas consistently after the phrase for the 73 other verses that use this same phrase. This makes me go hummmmmmmmmmmmmm?
I think this is a strong argument.
Quote:
Also to say Verily, Verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise instead of Verily Verily I say unto you, Today you will be with me in paradise, does not make good sense.
It would have been needless for Jesus to say, " Today I am telling this to you." Of course he was. What other day would He have been speaking of to the thief on? JESUS NEVER ADDED THE WORD TODAY WHEN SPEAKING TO ANYONE.
He did in the OT, repeatedly in Deuteronomy... "I command thee this day...."
Of course, when we compare Scripture with Scripture we discover that there is no way Jesus was with this thief in Paradise that day, nor do the Scriptures teach immortal soulism...
Not sure that being "in paradise" that day would necessarily imply immortal soulism if the passage is understood inwardly instead of literally.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Isaiah 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
Greetings, ShanaBrown: Did you read what Antredd wrote? It is ALWAYS suspicious when an exception to an established norm is used ONLY in places which benefit the preconceived theology of a person or group--ALWAYS.
There is absolutely NO justification for claiming that Jesus was saying "Verily, verily I say unto TODAY, . . . " except to promote a theological falsehood or bias. No justification.
Clearly, Jesus said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, today you shall be with Me in paradise." JW "translators" moved the comma, despite the numerous passages that have it before "today" (as Antredd pointed out and which you ignored) for the sole purpose of twisting the Scriptures to their own ends. This is not the only place they have done so!
That very day, that very thief was with Christ in paradise. The Scriptures are clear.
Preterist
Amen...Preterist!!
Blessings
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