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I personally believe that the pre-trib rapture and the prosperity gospel are the two greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated on the Christian faith. They are like the evil spirits released from Pandora's box. They will never be put back in. And there is no jewel of hope lying at the bottom of the box either. They are both here to stay, unfortunately, because of their enormous appeal to itching ears. The only way, at least in the case of the pre-trib rapture, that it will be proved false is by the passage of the years without any rapture materializing. Sadly, the idea of a pre-trib rapture is so inured in such a vast number Christian minds that it will never be expunged. Christians will go to their graves clinging to their belief that the pre-trib rapture is imminent. Think of it--a nearly 200 year-old "IMMINENT" rapture. Makes knowers of the truth, at least this one, truly sad. I spoke in another thread that the only value to be found in belief in a pre-trib rapture is the strength it generates in believers to get them out of bed in the morning and through life's day-to-day tribulations when, otherwise, they would be crushed. It's a "happy pill" and I can't blame many of them them for choosing to swallow it. You may not find any simililarities in the doctrines but the one thing they have in common is "feel-good" elixir. Pre-tribbers get to escape life's ordeals. Prosperity believers get to hope they will escape financial ruin. Pre-trib teachers have taken a hodge-podge of separate scriptures that talk of "keep thee from", "escape", "taken away" and other similar phrases and without any thought of checking the context surrounding them, weaved all these verses together to form a doctrine that cannot fail to appeal to a 20th century crowd exercising absolutely no discernment and/or desire to dig in and study what scripture really says about a rapture, which is....NOTHING. What most believers have in common is a desperation to insulate themselves from life's ills. It'd be almost comic if it weren't so tragic.
Anyway, Preterist, glad to see you again. As always you are a breath of rare common sense here.
None of what you say is necessarily true. What is so wrong with believing in the literal return of Christ? I could definitely argue the other way, saying the belief that he isn't coming back literally in the flesh could lead people into the belief that Christianity is only another form of psycho/spiritual self help. Its not much different that Christian Science, or Dianetics/ scientology for that matter. I understand your disagreement, but i don't understand your moral outrage? It's not as if those of us who are literalists are heretics. I would have to say the argument goes both ways if you wanna go there.
The Scriptures clearly says there will be a gathering of the saints after the Great Tribulation. The saints are God's people who will be resurrected in eternal glorified bodies; those alive at that time will be changed instantaneously (raptured/harpazo) and they all rise up to meet Jesus Christ in the sky.
The purpose of this gathering is to raise up the army of Christ who will come down to earth and fight the 200 Million army of the Antichrist in the Battle of Armageddon!
So why the need for JC's army to be resurrected saints with eternal bodies? This may sound incredible... because they will fight and destroy the 200 Million army of nephilim!
The nephilim are commonly known as "aliens or ET's", they are really hybrid humans and not from other planets. They are the modern "giants" of the OT who will be possessed by the demons released by Satan from the Bottomless Pit (Rev 9 - on the 5th Trumpet). They are the minions of the AC who will rule every town and city on earth for 3.5 years of the GT. They are called "kings" in the whole earth who in the end will be gathered by the AC to fight JC and his saints (Rev 16:13-16).
There's no other explanation other than they are super humans/nephilim or how could the AC have 200M henchmen to rule the World in such a short notice... enforce his mark, behead the rebels, and gather all of them in the Valley of Megiddo to fight JC?
After the army of the AC is defeated... the AC and the False Prophet are immediately thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 19:20)... bypassing the Great White Throne Judgment... giving us a clue that both are not humans but demons. Satan will be chained and locked up in the Bottomless Pit for future mission (Rev 20). The army of JC will then take over the governmental positions vacated by the nephilim and rule the humans on earth for 1000 years.
The Biblical prophecy is mainly about the coming 3.5 years of the GT... a time of momentous supernatural events that will happen in our lifetime. With the explosion of information on the internet... this is the first time in all history that the mysteries in the Books of Daniel and the Revelation are being revealed. This shows how close we are to the end time.
We believers of the nations meet the Lord in the air.
The Circumcision believers do not meet the Lord in the air but AFTER He sets foot on Mt. Zion.
When He sets foot on Mt. Zion then He kicks butt.
We believers of the nations are not involved in the earthly things at that time because we are transported into "the heavens out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also."
The Circumcision believers do not go to the heavens but remain on the earth.
What is so wrong with believing in the literal return of Christ?
Now hang on, one sec. I never said I believed Christ would never return in the flesh. In another thread called "Latest Wrinkle in End-Time Prophecy" I distinctly said that the only return Jesus will make is in Matthew 24:30 when He comes to gather His Saints from the four corner of the earth, but this occurs "AFTER the tribulation of those days", not before. This is the point at which Paul's famous 1 Thess. & 1 Corinthians rapture verses occur. There is no other return that Christ makes to earth that is recorded in the Bible. All the verses pre-tribbers give for proof of a pre-trib rapture such as Revelation 4:1, and 3:8-10 are pure conjecture. They speak nothing at all about being raptured. That John was carried "up" in the spirit to heaven is no evidence at all; that Jesus has set an "open door" for Philadelphians is no evidence at all. "But of that day & hour knows no man" is no evidence at all. NONE of these are evidence of a pre-trib rapture, but false teachers have taken them all, strung them together and created a mythology about a mysterious event in which Christians will be lifted off the earth before the start of a 7-year period of horror. This is all fiction, people, absolute fiction. NOWHERE in the Bible is a "7-year tribulation" mentioned. NOWHERE in the Bible is "I will come for My Saints 7 years before the start of the tribulation" - nothing even remotely similar. Again, I repeat: It's a fictional doctrine that has been cleverly stitched together over the years to sensationalize a very simple 1-time return of Jesus at the end of a horrible time in the future, the length of which we do not precisely know, but have some idea that it "might" last 1260 days, based on Daniel and Revelation. Again, these books might be referring to a 3 1/2 year period that has already passed. Preterist has some good arguments in that department. Preterist, BTW, has made an excellent case for the return having already occurred, if one wants to read the text in this light. I'm still on the fence as far as full preterism goes, but I still believe that Matthew 24:30 will take place at some point in the future, just not at the end of some mythical 7-year tribulation that despensationalists call Daniel's 70th week. That week ended 3 1/2 after Christ's death and resurrection.
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I understand your disagreement, but i don't understand your moral outrage?
My moral outrage stems solely from the fact that modern-day prophecy teachers have deliberately hooked Christians on the feel-good euphoria of the pre-trib doctrine. They use it as a tranquilizer to deaden the Christian to the trials and tribulations of this life, t's & t's that James said we should count as joy to experience in that they work patience in us. As I stated elsewhere I constantly see on pre-trib BBS's the following in some form or another: "Oh, my arthritis is killing me this morning. I sure wish the rapture would come. Then I'd get a new body and not have to deal with this pain." "Hang in there, Bridie. Hal says the rapture is coming this Pentecost. That's only 3 months away. Then we'll be in heaven with Jesus and you'll have a brand new body free of those nagging aches." This kind of thing is rampant in the Christian community. It's a fraud. Pure and simple. But big-time prophecy teachers teach it because it gets them air-time and lots of revenue from books and DVD sales. What! You think they'd be on TV raking in all that dough if they were saying there IS no pre-trib rapture???? You think Olsteen would have the largest Christian attendance in America if he was preaching repentence or punishment??? This is all "feel-good" Christianity being sold to lazy Christians who want the easy way out. Show me one prophecy teacher on TV that does not have something to sell and I will consider that you are right and I am wrong.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-04-2009 at 10:11 AM..
Reason: typos
What continues to amaze me is how christians completely miss the fact that the Messiah is NOT coming back for "the church"....he is coming back for "The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel"......that would be Israel....native born or grafted in. NOT gentiles that have NOT become part of the commonwealth of Israel. HE said so, so how is it that they miss it? Because they read the greek and not the Hebrew is my guess, or they concentrate entirely on snippits of the so called "New Testament" and ignore all of the prophecy that came before and was merely requoted in the NT. Oh well. And as for the rapture, pure folly. Those that believe it have no minds of their own as they failed to read starting at vs 13 where Rav Shaul (Paul) admonishes the assembly to "Not be ignorant like the heathen" and believe such fly away doctrines. Eh you can lead the horse to the water, but getting them to drink is quite another story.......how sad so many choose the wide path of destruction as HE said they would.........
My moral outrage stems solely from the fact that modern-day prophecy teachers have deliberately hooked Christians on the feel-good euphoria of the pre-trib doctrine. They use it as a tranquilizer to deaden the Christian to the trials and tribulations of this life, t's & t's that James said we should count as joy to experience in that they work patience in us. As I stated elsewhere I constantly see on pre-trib BBS's the following in some form or another: "Oh, my arthritis is killing me this morning. I sure wish the rapture would come. Then I'd get a new body and not have to deal with this pain." "Hang in there, Bridie. Hal says the rapture is coming this Pentecost. That's only 3 months away. Then we'll be in heaven with Jesus and you'll have a brand new body free of those nagging aches." This kind of thing is rampant in the Christian community. It's a fraud. Pure and simple. But big-time prophecy teachers teach it because it gets them air-time and lots of revenue from books and DVD sales. What! You think they'd be on TV raking in all that dough if they were saying there IS no pre-trib rapture???? You think Olsteen would have the largest Christian attendance in America if he was preaching repentence or punishment??? This is all "feel-good" Christianity being sold to lazy Christians who want the easy way out. Show me one prophecy teacher on TV that does not have something to sell and I will consider that you are right and I am wrong.
I find the concept of the "second coming" creates an apathy in many. They don't engage in solving the environmental problems we have created or in using their minds to create solutions for poverty or war. Many - not all - simply throw their hands up and say, "Oh well! Not my problem. I'm just waiting to be lifted out of here."
Seems like that approach is not very pro-life. It both negates to save life on our planet (a big "I told you so!" waiting on the tip of the tongue for us all to begin perrishing) and it negates utilizing the life given to each of us. It is a worldview always looking forward and, as the OP illustrates, it's always perplexing to me how people can simply assume the Bible is the word of God when it has so clearly been rewritten so many times over, each one tweaking it a little more.
One need only go to any bookstore to see the many versions. Even with the best of intentions, when someone with a limited perspective attempts to update old words or phrases, that individual may unwittingly assume he knows what it means but really doesn't and loses much in his translation.
That's why I feel it's imperative we put books down and seek to know Christ within by living each divine moment.
they concentrate entirely on snippits of the so called "New Testament" and ignore all of the prophecy that came before and was merely requoted in the NT
You got that right!!!!
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Eh you can lead the horse to the water, but getting them to drink is quite another story
How well I know that! "Easy escape" and "lazy Christian" go hand in hand. That's why Christians will die before they give up the pre-trib rapture. They'll die anyway waiting for it as Christians have been doing for the last 2000 years. Then they'll have their "rapture".
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I find the concept of the "second coming" creates an apathy in many. They don't engage in solving the environmental problems we have created or in using their minds to create solutions for poverty or war.
You got that right, as well. God commanded us to be good stewards of this earth. How miserably we've failed. All that's left is to wait on the pre-trib rapture to get us the h*ll out of this mess we've created down here.
Now hang on, one sec. I never said I believed Christ would never return in the flesh. In another thread called "Latest Wrinkle in End-Time Prophecy" I distinctly said that the only return Jesus will make is in Matthew 24:30 when He comes to gather His Saints from the four corner of the earth, but this occurs "AFTER the tribulation of those days", not before. This is the point at which Paul's famous 1 Thess. & 1 Corinthians rapture verses occur. There is no other return that Christ makes to earth that is recorded in the Bible. All the verses pre-tribbers give for proof of a pre-trib rapture such as Revelation 4:1, and 3:8-10 are pure conjecture. They speak nothing at all about being raptured. That John was carried "up" in the spirit to heaven is no evidence at all; that Jesus has set an "open door" for Philadelphians is no evidence at all. "But of that day & hour knows no man" is no evidence at all. NONE of these are evidence of a pre-trib rapture, but false teachers have taken them all, strung them together and created a mythology about a mysterious event in which Christians will be lifted off the earth before the start of a 7-year period of horror. This is all fiction, people, absolute fiction. NOWHERE in the Bible is a "7-year tribulation" mentioned. NOWHERE in the Bible is "I will come for My Saints 7 years before the start of the tribulation" - nothing even remotely similar. Again, I repeat: It's a fictional doctrine that has been cleverly stitched together over the years to sensationalize a very simple 1-time return of Jesus at the end of a horrible time in the future, the length of which we do not precisely know, but have some idea that it "might" last 1260 days, based on Daniel and Revelation. Again, these books might be referring to a 3 1/2 year period that has already passed. Preterist has some good arguments in that department. Preterist, BTW, has made an excellent case for the return having already occurred, if one wants to read the text in this light. I'm still on the fence as far as full preterism goes, but I still believe that Matthew 24:30 will take place at some point in the future, just not at the end of some mythical 7-year tribulation that despensationalists call Daniel's 70th week. That week ended 3 1/2 after Christ's death and resurrection.
Nowhere in the bible does it say specifically that Lucifer is Satan. Nowhere does it speak specifically of "the trinity". Nowhere exclusively does the bible talk about many of the doctrines that the various Christian sects/denominations hold to ...
The bible tells us to rightly divide the word of truth ... 2 Timothy 2:15
And that ...
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
Thus we know that many a truth is fully substantiated, not through single specific references to a given doctrine or prophesied event, but to various different references that when harmonized paint the picture of larger truths which are met out in part throughout the books of the bible. At sundry times and in sundry places and by many different men the spirit of truth was poured out into the written word of what is today the bible.
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My moral outrage stems solely from the fact that modern-day prophecy teachers have deliberately hooked Christians on the feel-good euphoria of the pre-trib doctrine. They use it as a tranquilizer to deaden the Christian to the trials and tribulations of this life, t's & t's that James said we should count as joy to experience in that they work patience in us. As I stated elsewhere I constantly see on pre-trib BBS's the following in some form or another: "Oh, my arthritis is killing me this morning. I sure wish the rapture would come. Then I'd get a new body and not have to deal with this pain." "Hang in there, Bridie. Hal says the rapture is coming this Pentecost. That's only 3 months away. Then we'll be in heaven with Jesus and you'll have a brand new body free of those nagging aches." This kind of thing is rampant in the Christian community. It's a fraud. Pure and simple. But big-time prophecy teachers teach it because it gets them air-time and lots of revenue from books and DVD sales. What! You think they'd be on TV raking in all that dough if they were saying there IS no pre-trib rapture???? You think Olsteen would have the largest Christian attendance in America if he was preaching repentence or punishment??? This is all "feel-good" Christianity being sold to lazy Christians who want the easy way out.Show me one prophecy teacher on TV that does not have something to sell and I will consider that you are right and I am wrong.
You know many are silly, and they are trivial and petty at times, even the best of us. However, the bible definitely tells us in multiple places that we shall put off corruption and put put on incorruption, and put off mortality for immortality at the time of his appearing. Your getting upset because people are ultimately only doing what Paul told us to do ...
1 Thessalonians 4
"Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
I disagree with dollar store Christianity, and the idea that Salvation is a great bargain. Its not a bargain its a free gift. I disagree with the prosperity message, our riches and glory are in Christ, not in material possessions. However, the rapture is an ancient doctrine, nothing new at all.
All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)
The idea stems from the fact that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him"(one of the earliest foreshadowings in scripture), as early as the sory of mosses and the deluge, which by many is seen as a foreshadowing of the end times when God will take those who walk with him from the earth before he mets out his judgment. Notice throughout Scripture God delivers the righteous out of the land before it is judged ... Lot out of Sodom and Gomorrah for example ... Elijah was taken up alive in a flaming Chariot ... Where did he go? Where did Enoch Go,? Where did Christ go when he rose into the sky? How could Christ second coming be imminent if we know that it happens after the tribulation of those times? It cant happen before then can it, if your interpretation is correct. So it isn't imminent by your interpretation.
I could really go into scripturally proving pre-trib. dispensationalism, but instead im am going to provide a link to a great book that is hosted online in its entirety called ...
"I find the concept of the "second coming" creates an apathy in many. They don't engage in solving the environmental problems we have created or in using their minds to create solutions for poverty or war."
"You got that right, as well. God commanded us to be good stewards of this earth. How miserably we've failed. All that's left is to wait on the pre-trib rapture to get us the h*ll out of this mess we've created down here."
First of All, Jesus tells use ...
John 12:8
"For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always."
Yes, giving to the poor and taking care of widows and orphans and visiting people in jail ... That is good and true "Religion"(thrēskeia, worship or service to God) ... It is not however the Gospel message. The Gospel message is reconciliation of the world through Christ and the coming of the kingdom of God to be revealed from its mystery form within the believers into the world at his return when he sets up his dominion on earth.
If you feel so bad about present conditions on earth, we all knew it was coming to this from the beginning ... That is to say since Christ revealed the mystery of the prophecy of revelations to John.
Hug a tree, or give someone a coke or whatever you feel will make you a responsible "earthling". Thats cool ...
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You think Olsteen would have the largest Christian attendance in America if he was preaching repentence or punishment??? 
