For those who believe in hell, I have a question. (Revelation, prayer)
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I not going to venture a guess at "numbers", but I think the majority of people today are not going to enter heaven...
Sounds like you think the devil is God , because he is more able to destroy life than God is able to save .
I don't think "the devil is God". But, I do take the Bible for exactly what it states: that many are they who will enter the wide gate that leads to destruction. Do you think that scripture is a lie, or maybe put there to "fill up space", or that it means something entirely different?
I don't say that God isn't able and willing to save everybody in spite of the devil...because He certainly could, being all powerful. Problem is....not everybody wants to be saved, else they would be...so many choose to instead follow Satan...just like the Bible said would happen...
God is a gentleman, and will not "override" one's will...else we all would automatically be going to heaven, He would decide it for us, whether we believed in Him or not...and regardless of how we've lived our lives here on earth. Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, etc would all be in heaven too. What we believed and how we lived while on earth would not matter in the slightest...
If you don't believe what the Bible says, then I say your ship has no compass...you will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine...and spend your life on the seas of life going in circles...
Personally, I don't like everything that's in the Bible, there's a few rules I "balk" at. But I have to believe what it says, and abide by it...go along with it...He's the boss, not me. But, over time, I've learned you can trust in God, and rely on what He says. Seems pretty simple to me. (Not easy, but simple)
But he is not overiding anyones will . He will have all men to be saved . That's His will , please do not tell me our will is greater than His . Think about it ???????
I don't think "the devil is God". But, I do take the Bible for exactly what it states: that many are they who will enter the wide gate that leads to destruction. Do you think that scripture is a lie, or maybe put there to "fill up space", or that it means something entirely different?
Hi, BudinAk, Thanks for sharing. I believe that many will enter the gate that goes to destruction. Many will perish, but destruction, though, is not the end. Many of us had to be destroyed before we came to our senses and saw our need for God. There is a scripture that says, "He turns men to destruction, and says, 'Return ye children of men." Destruction is not necessarily the final condition.
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I don't say that God isn't able and willing to save everybody in spite of the devil...because He certainly could, being all powerful. Problem is....not everybody wants to be saved, else they would be...so many choose to instead follow Satan...just like the Bible said would happen...
The scriptures teach that the god of this age has blinded the unbelievers, and the scriptures teach us that one day all will return to Him, God is able to open all eyes, convict all of their sin, win all to Himself, gain their allegiance.
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God is a gentleman, and will not "override" one's will...else we all would automatically be going to heaven, He would decide it for us, whether we believed in Him or not...and regardless of how we've lived our lives here on earth. Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, etc would all be in heaven too. What we believed and how we lived while on earth would not matter in the slightest...
How did we come to God? Did He bulldoze His way in and override our wills? He drew us to Himself and we responded. We saw our need for our Savior. Many of us had to hit rock bottom before we saw this. God is able to do this for all men because He has fashioned all hearts. Eventually everyone will bow in adoration and we will all worship Him for who He is and for what He has done. In the name of Jesus everyone will give Him the glory. There must be a change in all wills, if all will be doing this willingly.
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If you don't believe what the Bible says, then I say your ship has no compass...you will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine...and spend your life on the seas of life going in circles...
Personally, I don't like everything that's in the Bible, there's a few rules I "balk" at. But I have to believe what it says, and abide by it...go along with it...He's the boss, not me. But, over time, I've learned you can trust in God, and rely on what He says. Seems pretty simple to me. (Not easy, but simple)
Bud
I believe that God is the boss and that because He is the boss, He is in complete control and will fulfill all of His purposes for the creation. Even our temporary abilty to disobey Him is a part of His purpose to restore and reunite all in Jesus Christ, who has been made heir of all things. (Eph. 1, Hebrews 1) He is able to subdue all things to Himself.(Phil. 3) God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-09-2009 at 06:20 PM..
Wait. You didn't answer the question. This isn't about preaching "the good news" to anyone. You answered the first part of the question by saying: "... spend what precious moments we have left with them. "
Now the follow up question to that was: What is your reasoning to do so?
What is your reasoning to spending what precious moments you have left with them?? (Remember you already know they're headed for hell. This isn't about trying to "save" them. What is your reason for spending as much time you have left with them? Again, not a trick question. The answers will probably all be obvious and similar from everyone. (because they love their loved ones... I imagine, right?)
not really spending as much time with them but coming to a realization that they will not repent and they will go to hell. My job is to give them the gospel and pray like no on'e business for their salvation and allow God to do his job as He promised.
Too many Christians live as though hell is not such a bad place because we can so complacent with the gospel, infact that complacency sort of demonstrates if we truly believe in hell?
I don't think God controls anyone's will. He gave us free will... or else he has created robots. I believe when he told Adam and Eve to go multiply it was all up to each individual to do what he wants. I believe we are born by random chance of a sperm fertilizing an egg.
God can see the end from the beginning... he said he already knew us before we were born, but he does not micromanage our life... except when it serves his purpose that he tweaks events here and there.
You are confusing free will with "choice". No where in scripture does it show free will with salvation my friend.
But he is not overiding anyones will . He will have all men to be saved . That's His will , please do not tell me our will is greater than His . Think about it ???????
I don't think that is what Fundamentalist was saying. I believe he meant that God values human life and our ability to choose for ourselves. It isn't that our will is greater than God's, it is that God loves us so much that He refuses to make us do anything we don't want to do. If we don't want a relationship with Him, if we don't want to repent, then God (out of love) will respect our choice and allow us to carry out our lives as we see fit.
By bringing all of creation to Him in the end (even those who don't want Him) it would seem that God is binding creation in shackles and forcing many who have rejected Him to give Him glory. That doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I have it wrong. If you think I am, then help me out
I don't think that is what Fundamentalist was saying. I believe he meant that God values human life and our ability to choose for ourselves. It isn't that our will is greater than God's, it is that God loves us so much that He refuses to make us do anything we don't want to do. If we don't want a relationship with Him, if we don't want to repent, then God (out of love) will respect our choice and allow us to carry out our lives as we see fit.
By bringing all of creation to Him in the end (even those who don't want Him) it would seem that God is binding creation in shackles and forcing many who have rejected Him to give Him glory. That doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I have it wrong. If you think I am, then help me out
Imagine this Nero. What if God gave us free will to choose Him? remember the bible is clear we are at war with God, that man wants nothing to do with God, we are children of wrath.
If you had free will to choose God in the fallen state you are in. Would you choose Him? I know I wouldn't. I thank God everyday that He didn't give us the free will to choose Him because we would all be including OT saints, automatically damned.
I personally living my life keeping to the ten commandments as best I can and prey for fogiveness of my sins and trust in the lord. I do not fear hell.
It is from my walk with God, and what I feel He has shown me, I believe there are two types of hearts when it comes to the eternal torment doctrine. I believe that all who believe in the doctrine of eternal torment have either one or the other -OR- fall somwhere between these two types of hearts:
1. a hardened heart... one that pushes away the thought of others burning and being tortured for all eternity. Their hearts are hardened, a wall has been built up to push away the pain/terror of it all. These people are not "Cold", their hearts have just been hardened. That's all. They have become numbed and unfeeling in regards to others, in that regard. They have pushed it so far down, that their hearts cannot be touched. They are tight lippted and steely-eyed. This is a way of protecting theirselves. They say things like "we all have a choice". "It's sad, but God gives me peace over it." "They made their bed, they must lie in it..." "Who am I to question God?", "The bible says it plain as day, it's right there, there is no excuse for them". This type of heart does NOT love his neighbor. It is impossible. Because if they LOVED others, they would not only fear their fate, they would be suffering night and day over this. So their hearts are indeed hardened. These people are God's children, they are not cold to the core. They are not. They are glorious children of God, however... their hearts have a big wall built around them. Their hearts are Hardened. There is absolutely NO question. They are NOT loving their neighbors.
LOVE. It's not just a word. It's the MOST POWERFUL thing in this universe. We're not talking love in delicate sense, here. LOVE your neighbors is the command. LOVE. meaning looking past their faults to see the human inside that is just like you. But they cannot. Their heart is hardened. It is a form of protection.
The other type of heart is one that has not yet been hardened:
2. a heart that is not hardened. One that suffers in their mind, one that suffers in their heart for others who may go to eternal torment. There are several here on this forum who believe in eternal torment, who I feel have more of this type of heart, rather than the "hardened heart".A heart that is desperate, absolutely just suffering that there will be some who are tortured forever. A heart that does everything they can to SAVE people from this horrific fate. A heart that suffers for others... A heart that does as Jesus commanded... a heart that LOVES his or her neighbor.
God has give me a vision of these two hearts. I believe all people who believe in eternal torment have various stages of these two types of hearts going on. Some people have moved completely into the first heart. The hardened heart.
For others, who have more of the 2nd type of heart right now, they will either take that heart all the way to the BRINK... or they can instead, eventually become the hardened heart. If they take it to the brink... if they LOVE their neighbor as theirself as GOD COMMANDED... then this love that they have for their neighbor will GROW, and when it grows.... when more of Christ fills their heart, and the "carnal heart" is DISPLACED.. their heart will do one of two things. It will not be able to handle anymore, the dotrine of eternal torment, because the LOVE in their heart will take it to the BRINK. Either that person's heart becomes hardened, or it becomes BROKEN. God works with the BROKEN HEARTED. God will take you to the very END of yourself, in order to lift you up. A heart that is taken to the brink is one that suffers and LOVES others, one who sees their enemies as no longer enemies, but as brothers and sisters, as humans. A heart that is taken to the BRINK is one that God has taken THROUGH THE FIRE. We must be salted with fire.
This second heart...can find truth. This second heart will be the one who finds the truth of our loving Father who is the saviour of ALL mankind. It is not for the meek. This fire is a consuming fire. It WILL consume you.
The first part of my life my heart was more like the first heart. I never found peace, I never found Jesus, I never found the gospel. I had a vague belief in Eternal Torment, but it was very vague because of what everyone ELSE had to say about God. I never really looked into it. It never made sense. so I kept God at arm's length. It wasn't until God brought me to the end of myself.... and I was loving my neighbor as fiercly as I could, my enemies were no longer my enemies, I was CONSUMED with the thought of EVEN ONE person going to hell. Day and Night, I suffered torments, fearing and worrying about every single person I saw. Of course, my loved ones. But then my coworkers, strangers, associates, even all those in Hollywood that I couldn't stand, it wasn't until God brought me to MY KNEES and showed me: "Look at the faces of these people, You will see the faces of strangers. The faces of sinners. But if You look at the blood shed, it is red! It is like yours! It is just like yours!" IF this sounds familiar it is re-worded from the funeral scene in Mississippi Burning. Google it on youtube and watch it. You'll understand.
It wasn't until God took me through this.... This is why the two commands are to LOVE God with all of your heart, and to LOVE your neighbor as yourself. This is the ONLY way to find truth.
You must LOVE God with ALL of your heart. That heart that fears your loved ones going to hell, that part of your heart does NOT love God. It cannot. God is trying to take you through something to show you something.
Love your neighbor as yourself. If you loved your neigbor as yourself, your heart WILL be taken to the brink... your heart will be go through the fire that it needs to go through in order for God to take hold of your heart and show you the way.
I already know what some of the responses will be to this. I understand BOTH types of hearts. BOTH types of hearts...I understand. I have had both. I love you all as my brothers and sisters. Perhaps you may see some of yourself in either one of these hearts, or in both hearts. I do pray that God's will be done, and that He will take you through the fire and show you *HIS* beautiful heart.
Remember brothers and sisters, as you reflect on your answers to my questions these things which are true of our Lord:
God is love. PERFECT love.
Perfect love casts out ALL fear.
There is NO fear in perfect love.
Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.
Until these and many, many, many other verses JUST LIKE IT ring true in your heart so profoundly, that you finally DO UNDERSTAND them... only then will you know that JESUS, our LORD IS who He says He is. Only then will your heart be exceedingly glad. Only then will you have the "PEACE THAT SURPASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING". These are not just nice "slogans".... but GREAT TRUTH. These verses.... will come alive like never before:
These verses, they will bring forth a multitude of praises and unbelievable LOVE for our Father and LOVE for your neighbor. EVERYONE. LOVE for EVERYONE. Not JUST your loved ones. Not JUST your friends. But for STRANGERS. People you don't even KNOW. People you used to DIDN'T LIKE! You see them, as GOD sees them. LOVE becomes PARAMOUNT in your life. Everything, from now on... God slowly changes your heart into HIS HEART. That is the beauty. The more CHRIST fills YOUR HEART, the more your carnal heart becomes DISPLACED. This is why you start to TRULY LOVE all. Just as HE DOES. This is why the two COMMANDS are:
1. Love the Lord with all your heart.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
The reason why Jesus GAVE these commands...and the reason why He sayd "my yoke is easy, my burden is LIGHT" because ONCE God has taken your heart through the fire, you understand. My GOD!! MY GOD!! YES!!
Sorrow is turned to laughter.
Father is waiting for you... will you take his hand? Will you look at those around you and see their blood is red just like yours? Will you look at the faces in the crowd... and see yourself? If you do, you are at the beginning of God's most awesome journey he has in store for you...
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This glorious future picture will come alive in your heart and in your soul like NEVER before: And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
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I am disturbed by you post about people's hearts, .sparrow. It seems to me that you've projected your own angst and experiences onto others who do and do not believe like you. Quite frankly, it sounds like pop psychology. My psychology professor in college said something very profound the first day in class: "Just because you complete a psych class or two, do not think you are qualified to go around analyzing people."
Jeremiah 17: 9-10 states, "The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked; who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind."
Only the Lord can completely understand the heart. It's not something that can be put in two categories. It's very, very complicated. You may not believe me, but neither of your descriptions come anywhere close to describing my heart, nor do you come close to accurately describing my love for God and others.
I can tell you one thing. I take those verses in Jeremiah very seriously. I do not want my emotions affecting my interpretation of Scripture, not do I want them affecting my view of God. I want to know God for who He is, not what I want Him to be. I want to read Scripture and understand it for what it says, not what I want it to say.
You're walking on very dangerous ground saying that parts of hearts don't--no, cannot--love God if they fear for the salvation of their loved ones. You cannot judge a calloused heart, and you cannot say it is impossible for such people to find truth. With God, all things are possible! You cannot judge the degree of someone's love. You cannot begin to know their heart or the depth of the love for either God or their neighbor. You are coming dangerously close to literally cursing those who hearts and love you presume to judge.
Please realize that your words contain power. Death and life are in the power of the tongue. Please be careful what you say.
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