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23`Because of this was the reign of the heavens likened to a man, a king, who did will to take reckoning with his servants, 24and he having begun to take account, there was brought near to him one debtor of a myriad of talents, 25and he having nothing to pay, his lord did command him to be sold, and his wife, and the children, and all, whatever he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant then, having fallen down, was bowing to him, saying, Sir, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all; 27and the lord of that servant having been moved with compassion did release him, and the debt he forgave him. 28`And, that servant having come forth, found one of his fellow-servants who was owing him an hundred denaries, and having laid hold, he took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that which thou owest. 29His fellow-servant then, having fallen down at his feet, was calling on him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all; 30and he would not, but having gone away, he cast him into prison, till he might pay that which was owing. 31`And his fellow-servants having seen the things that were done, were grieved exceedingly, and having come, shewed fully to their lord all the things that were done; 32then having called him, his lord saith to him, Evil servant! all that debt I did forgive thee, seeing thou didst call upon me, 33did it not behove also thee to have dealt kindly with thy fellow-servant, as I also dealt kindly with thee? 34`And having been wroth, his lord delivered him to the inquisitors, till he might pay all that was owing to him;35so also my heavenly Father will do to you, if ye may not forgive each one his brother from your hearts their trespasses.'
Ok now read the bold type again , till he might pay all that was owing to him.
In otherwords he is released after serving his time , not kept in there for ever and ever and ever.
Regarding the blessing and cursing .
Those who are cursed according to old testament writings obviously suffered and paid for their disobedience in this life , my point is it would be totally unjust for those who suffered a cursed life and paid for their disobedience in this lifetime , then be sentenced again for the same crime in the life to come. If that is just in your thinking then what can i say.
Bear a personal burden ???????? You obviously do not know that Jesus is the burden bearer.
The rejoicing was so great because that which was lost was found . You see the point of the parable clearly demonstrates that God is not satisfied with saving a few/many , He is not satified unless it's all
Where is the price of the dying lost found in the scriptures
If your waiting for me to say that i deserve to die, then fine ... I deserve to die, just like everyone else.
Somehow, i get the feeling that the real question is what do i believe to be Gods responsibility to his creation? Or if i believe he bares any responsibility at all for anything he does? If that is the real question then yes i think God is responsible for his creation, and ultimately that is why he became a man and died for the sins of his creation.
Whether or not that is what you meant to ask me, I would like to pose that question to you ...
Do you believe God is responsible for his creation ... ?
No you are reading way into too much. I am just asking you, what do you believe you deserve from God?
I believe He is responsible first and foremost for receiving His glory and if His glory means being responsible for His creation, then yes. If it doesn't then "NO"! Since I am not God I can't answer that but from reading scripture I see nothing where God is responsible for His creation solely for the sake of being responsible. We are not saved because He is responsible but because of His mercy. He made a way even though He didn't have to.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-10-2009 at 07:42 AM..
23`Because of this was the reign of the heavens likened to a man, a king, who did will to take reckoning with his servants, 24and he having begun to take account, there was brought near to him one debtor of a myriad of talents, 25and he having nothing to pay, his lord did command him to be sold, and his wife, and the children, and all, whatever he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant then, having fallen down, was bowing to him, saying, Sir, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all; 27and the lord of that servant having been moved with compassion did release him, and the debt he forgave him. 28`And, that servant having come forth, found one of his fellow-servants who was owing him an hundred denaries, and having laid hold, he took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that which thou owest. 29His fellow-servant then, having fallen down at his feet, was calling on him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all; 30and he would not, but having gone away, he cast him into prison, till he might pay that which was owing. 31`And his fellow-servants having seen the things that were done, were grieved exceedingly, and having come, shewed fully to their lord all the things that were done; 32then having called him, his lord saith to him, Evil servant! all that debt I did forgive thee, seeing thou didst call upon me, 33did it not behove also thee to have dealt kindly with thy fellow-servant, as I also dealt kindly with thee? 34`And having been wroth, his lord delivered him to the inquisitors, till he might pay all that was owing to him;35so also my heavenly Father will do to you, if ye may not forgive each one his brother from your hearts their trespasses.'
Ok now read the bold type again , till he might pay all that was owing to him.
In otherwords he is released after serving his time , not kept in there for ever and ever and ever.
First, this is a parable to descibe forgiveness, not to explain eternal ramifications. Second, a debtor in prison could not pay his debts (because he was in prison). Others, family, friends, etc. had to pay his debt. Third, "until he pays" doesn't necessarily mean that he will pay but if and when he pays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Regarding the blessing and cursing .
Those who are cursed according to old testament writings obviously suffered and paid for their disobedience in this life , my point is it would be totally unjust for those who suffered a cursed life and paid for their disobedience in this lifetime , then be sentenced again for the same crime in the life to come. If that is just in your thinking then what can i say.
Psalm 94:3 O Lord, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked exult?
Psalm 73:3 For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For they have no pangs until death; their bodies are fat and sleek. They are not troubled as others are; they are not stricken like the rest of mankind.
Sins may catch up with us before we die, but that is not always the case. Much of the old testament gives account where God's people were persecuted by the wicked. Sometimes decades or longer pass before God restored His people. While the cause of the wicked is overturned eventually, not each and every wicked person lived a cursed life before they died.
I still say that what seems like a curse in this life all too often may be dependant on one's point of view.
John 9:1-3 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him."
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Bear a personal burden ???????? You obviously do not know that Jesus is the burden bearer.
Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Jesus does bear our burdens, but we must go to him and take his yoke. People often bear burdens, obviously. Otherwise, what burden does Jesus lift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
The rejoicing was so great because that which was lost was found . You see the point of the parable clearly demonstrates that God is not satisfied with saving a few/many , He is not satified unless it's all
No, the Lord does not desire any would be lost, but that doesn't mean none will be. Just as in the example of the drunk driver, God did not desire the innocent to die, but he did allow the drunk's sins to have fatal consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Where is the price of the dying lost found in the scriptures
Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death...
Luke 19:7 ..."He has gone in to be the guest of a man [Zacchaeus] who is a sinner."
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."
John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever beleives in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever beleives in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
No, the Lord does not desire any would be lost, but that doesn't mean none will be.
Really! My God's desires, and His sovereign Will are all flowing in absolute determination to consummation.
Quote:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all mankind to be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself as a ransom or all mankind to be testified in due time.
"Who will have"= thelo=
To intend. To purpose.
To will. To have in mind.
To be resolved and determined.
-Dr. Marvin Vincent-
Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai).
Literally, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose.
oV pantaV anqrwpouV qelei swqhnai kai eiV epignwsin alhqeiaV elqein
Young's Literal Translation
"who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;"
Really! My God's desires, and His sovereign Will are all flowing in absolute determination to consummation.
"Who will have"= thelo=
To intend. To purpose.
To will. To have in mind.
To be resolved and determined.
-Dr. Marvin Vincent-
Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai).
Literally, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose.
oV pantaV anqrwpouV qelei swqhnai kai eiV epignwsin alhqeiaV elqein
Young's Literal Translation
"who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;"
Some much knowledge yet so foolish how can you call upon a saviour if all are saved do you think that salvation is just a member ship card to a better way of life club? When you toss garbage in to the can do you go back and pull it out expecting it to be new? Tell about this god who pours out his wrath on his only begoten son and then honors him with another work of salvation to that which nailed him to the cross. We are not saved by a prayer or just going to church on easter or christmas we saved by an all consuming FAITH a DEATH to flesh to sin by seeking his face for he is just and we deserve death but we because of HIM WHOM WE ARE SLAVES WHOM WE SERVE WHO WE WORSHIP! Don't be a fool from where did satin fall was it in New York or LA NO it was in the presents of GOD that he was cast out!
"For You have made him sovereign over all flesh, that whatsoever You have given him, to them he should give eternal life."
The Greek is quite clear; but some of our versions fail in not repeating the emphatic all (repeated in the original koine), which involves the gift (not the offer) of eternal life to all by Christ--thus obscuring the meaning.
Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T.
"All flesh"=
A Hebrew phrase denoting the whole of humanity in its imperfection....
Quote:
You have invested Him with authority over all mankind, in order that He may give eternal life to all whom You have entrusted to Him.
"Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son He has ordained all creation shall ultimately belong. This Son, radiance of the glory of God, flawless expression of the nature of God, himself the upholding principle of all that is, effected in his person the reconciliation between God and man, and then took his seat...."
Some much knowledge yet so foolish how can you call upon a saviour if all are saved do you think that salvation is just a member ship card to a better way of life club?
When His desire is that all would know Him (and it is - Heb 8:11) and all should be one with Him (and it is - John 17:22), then He will desire that we ask of Him what is His will (and He does - Psa 2:8).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirdparty
When you toss garbage in to the can do you go back and pull it out expecting it to be new?
Funny you should ask that, because that's exactly what Gehenna is - a dump. What is dumped there goes back to the thread I posted about the trichotomous man.
Tell about this god who pours out his wrath on his only begoten son and then honors him with another work of salvation to that which nailed him to the cross.
I'm not sure where you get this idea, but Calvary is payment for mankind which is dispensated throughout the ages. Once and for all.
When you toss garbage in to the can do you go back and pull it out expecting it to be new?
Let's speak for a moment regarding the garbage, shall we?
"He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude."
Quote:
For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven.
Really! My God's desires, and His sovereign Will are all flowing in absolute determination to consummation.
If God planned on redeeming everyone whether they believed on Him or not:
why send his Son to die?
why give us the bible, since knowing Him becomes irrelevant in eternity?
Why give Adam and Eve a choice and a warning about eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
why reward those who follow his commands?
why would He allow that drunk driver to kill an innocent family?
why should anyone not seek their own ways (lie, cheat, steal, etc.)?
I understand God's love is perfected in that what He desires and what He forces upon those He loves is not always the same. I desire much for my kids. However, even if I could give them everything I wouldn't do it if their hearts were hardened and wicked. God is not the omnipotent enabler. (by enabler I mean one who enables anothers bad habits.)
If God planned on redeeming everyone whether they believed on Him or not: why send his Son to die?
why give us the bible, since knowing Him becomes irrelevant in eternity?
Why give Adam and Eve a choice and a warning about eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
why reward those who follow his commands?
why would He allow that drunk driver to kill an innocent family?
why should anyone not seek their own ways (lie, cheat, steal, etc.)?
I understand God's love is perfected in that what He desires and what He forces upon those He loves is not always the same. I desire much for my kids. However, even if I could give them everything I wouldn't do it if their hearts were hardened and wicked. God is not the omnipotent enabler. (by enabler I mean one who enables anothers bad habits.)
I have asked that question and they didn't respond to me, curious to read the answer.
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