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I'll reuse my text from another post to save myself time retyping.....admittedly it's a bit brisk, that's my thorn in the flesh I think
Christ said that He did only as His Father would have Him do and say, so when Christ said "Father forgive them", do you think that just this one time His Father said, "NOPE, now you're just prayingamiss Jesus." Or do you think He actually forgave them? Whether "them" is the soldiers at his feet or all of mankind, "they" were forgiven without "their" choosing to be forgiven!! You could say, "they" were forgiven, against "their" will. So if BOTH Father and SON forgive you, does HE then toss you into eternal barbeque? REALLY???!! Is that what you believe? It was Christ's Faith and Works that got the job done(It Is Finished,and therefore not up to man), through one man Adam ALL were condemned and Through one man Christ, the same ALL, were redeemed.
You are mixing Jesus' asking to forgive their act with Jesus' redemptive work on the cross.
I believe God may well have forgiven this act on account of Jesus' prayer. However, this is no different than Abraham asking God to spare Sodom. Several times god told Abraham "yes". Of course, their sins continued and eventually God destroyed Sodom. Sodom did not receive salvation, but forgiveness.
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Originally Posted by Cyno
The whole concept that the will of man is in charge and has more authority than God, just lends to the proof of the arrogance in the heart of man.... remember that little thing called "the Pride of Life". Jesus, Holy Spirit, Angels, and Satan, ALL obey Father God, yet somehow puny man has more authority over the Will of Father God than any of these? That is a doctrine for witches, false teachers, and heretics. Pray that God shows you the pride and arrogance of the heart of man in the religious traditions of men, and pray that he delivers you from such evil.
We U.R. folks accredit God with being able to come up with a Plan "A" and to actually complete it, common Christian orthodoxy saysGOD ALMIGHTY had to go to Plan "B" and is generally a failure at saving the world, talk about a cult!!
Satan rebelled against God, which is why he was cast out of Heaven and will ultimately be cast into the lake of everlasting fire forever and ever. Satan doesn't obey God except that he operates within the confines allowed by God. (within that sphere, God does also use Satan such as when Joseph said "what you intended for evil, God used for good".) Satan is still the father of lies. Satan shows us perfect rebellion.
Jesus showed us perfect submission. His life, by his words and actions, bore witness to God alone. The Holy Spirit is the same. He too is perfectly aligned with God the father.
Man, however, is neither perfect in rebellion nor submission. We have been created in the image of God, but are stricken with a sin nature. God gave us an independence, a mind and will of our own. In the garden, man named the animals because God allowed him to do so. Short of a free will, man would be but a puppet of God.
Instead, God purposed to influence us. He influenced in the garden, but man chose to rebel setting the stage for sin and death for the rest of mankind throughout our natural lives. He influenced us before the time of Christ with Moses and the prophets. The old Testament is ripe with accounts of obedience and disobedience and the rewards and consequences thereof. In the days of Jesus Christ, God influenced us with his Son whom was sent for a purpose. His purpose was "to seek and to save"; "to find that which was lost"; "that whosoever believed on Him might not perish but have eternal life"; "in order that the world might be saved through him". Since then, God still influences us through his Word, the Holy Spirit, prayer, and others.
Did God mess up because he lost something? NO. Then why did he send Christ, if he is going to be the all in all no matter what? Because he made man with an independent mind and will. Does this mean we can do things that God cannot stop us from? NO. But it does mean God can allow us to make good choices and bad choices if he so chooses.
Look at the debate we are having. At least one side, ET or US, has to be incorrect because they are mutually exclusive. If we are unable to do anything apart from God's iron hand then how is it we have differing ideas on this? Is God's will served by such disunity? NO. Likewise, if God's plan was perfect in the beginning, what went wrong that he later sent his Son? Nothing. His plan is perfect and it includes man's free will at the allowance of God himself.
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Originally Posted by Cyno
This was not at all what the early church taught, but was championed by theologian Augustine 500 years later, but when you live in the 21st century it's easly to be tricked into thinking the teaching of hell and eternal torment have always been the fundamental teaching of christianity. It has NOT.
Fifth century Augustine and 1,400 years of indoctrination polluted by the traditions of men would have us interpret the "victorious" scriptures in light of the "judgment" scriptures, instead of interpreting "judgment" scriptures in light of the "victorious" scriptures! ....Thus establishing centuries of disallusioned indoctrination of a diminutive god vs. an Almighty Sovereign GOD.
Augustine was not part of "the" early church. He was a part of the early RCC church. He may have "championed" an abusive approach, but he didn't "champion" God's word to all. There were some devious leaders then as there are now to be sure. However, if they were as devious with the word as you and others have strongly contended, don't you think they could have done a better job?There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that do not fit the controlling nature to which they aspired.
Why stop at "age-during", "age of ages" or "hell"?? If they really wanted to do a thorough job they should have gone much, much further. It would have been easy. Even the historical "original" texts we have are likely not the first actual penned writings of the authors. It would have been easy to fabricate the documents starting with Basil the great in the second century and on and on even to Augustine in the sixth century.
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Originally Posted by Cyno
We believe God is Sovereign and does ALL He pleases. Isa 46:9-11
We believe God wills that ALL be saved. 1Tim 2:4 And ALL is subject to Him. 1Cor 15:28
I agree with the scriptures. I believe that God's will is that none be lost; that all be saved. I don't believe that God wills that all be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4 [God our Savior] who desires all people to be saved...
All are subject to God. Satan is subject to God, rebellious as he is, and will be cast into the everlasting lake of fire forever and ever; for the ages of ages. We are children; not puppets, robots, or maniquins. Children don't always do the will of the Father, except the Son always does.
Yes you are probably right the church of today just like the church of the dark ages keeps the flock in darkness with its traditions and the lost are driven away by the hypocrisy of it
It is wrong to institutionalize all churches in this manner. That is the kind of propaganda that drives the lost away from any church.
Christ died for the church, not for what she is supposed to be, but for what she is. To be sure there are many questionable churches, but no church is perfect. No church is completely free of hypocracy, or other misgivings; they are made up of people; imperfect people. We should be encouraging others to find a Bible-believing, Bible-teaching healthy church and thereby building up the body of the true church which ultimately knows no walls or boundaries.
... Scriptures like the one in Romans 8 and Eph. 1 speak very clearly of God's intention to deliver the creation and reunite all in Jesus Christ. Are all reconciled to Him now? No, but eventually all will turn to Him and be restored. God bless.
Paraphrase: Is everyone reconciled simulataneously AND living in a restored state today?
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
2 Corinthians 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
It sounds here like God expected a change in us during our lives as a result of Christ's death. We know he died as the propitiation for our sins, but how can we "no longer live for ourselves but for him" unless we accept him as Lord and choose to follow him?
Paraphrase: It sounds here like God expected a change in us during our lives...by following him
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Originally Posted by Cyno
I don't see the conflict, we are to live for Him from now on....
The point is that not following Him right now does not mean one never will or can not.
Of course I understand that you do not believe it is possible to follow Him after soul and body death, and ShanaBrown believes ALL will eventually be lead back to Him. She believes this because Jesus paid the wages of Sin: Death, to facilitate resurrection, when the last enemy death will be destroyed. But since we all must die to be reborn and we have not all died, the resurrection has also not occurred. Yes absolutely as believers and followers of Christ, we believe that the sooner that God begins changing your heart and thereby your actions, your character, your desire to sin and disobey, etc., All the Better. Whether in this live or in the resurrection, we all will learn and be dragged by Christ through trials, suffering and general God-given, fatherly, education, to become created in His image as Sons, co-heirs with Christ.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Surely you are not suggesting everyone lives for him? Look around and see so many living for themselves. Does this mean that Jesus died in vain because it is not true that everyone is not living for him, but rather many will die having lived a full life for themselves instead?
I say no. I see the changed lives as evidence of faith in him, and it is that faith in him revealed that saves.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Absolutely, I wouldn't even suggest that "everyone lives for him" today, even though I am a third grader.
I see the changed lives as evidence of grace by Him(not to exclude faith, which comes by this same WORD/LAMB). He choses, He calls, He changes, not I, but Christ in me. Why is He in me? Because I invited Him?, that's not in the scriptures. Because, my faith?
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
I do agree that it is by faith and believing, but I think the faith and believing comes from God as He chooses, whereas most people believe it comes from their choosing.
Where we differ is that I believe we are saved from our carnal nature and physical death, while you believe we are saved from our carnal nature and eternal torment(which is strangley called death even though supposedly there is a lot of painful living the whole time).
You are mixing Jesus' asking to forgive their act with Jesus' redemptive work on the cross.
If you will look at every scripture with the word forgiveness in the NT you will be hard pressed to argue that forgiveness from God and His redemption/salvation do not go hand in hand.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
...Satan doesn't obey God except that he operates within the confines allowed by God..... God does also use Satan.... Satan shows us perfect rebellion.
You assume that Satan is not doing exactly what God created Him to do. If God knew what Satan was going to do, and did not plan to save Him through Christ's death, then God is evil and cruel for creating Him to be that way in the first place. The created being can never be more or less than what God intended. Satan does in fact obey the purpose of his creation. Anything less and God is a terrible creator.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Man, however, is neither perfect in rebellion nor submission.
The heart of man is at enmity with God, but God is causing us to become Sons. There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between having a "Free Will", devoid of the influence of God, and being able to make choices related to our maturing and becoming Sons.
The lack of "Free Will" does not make you a puppet, it makes you a child. I can assure you that while my children have a will to make choices, it is not outside of the container of my guidence. If I knew there were eternal fire and brimstone outside my front door, I would use every resource available to prevent them from going outside, I wouldn't just send a message and hope they'd have faith in me and receive it, I would drag them from such a place. So God is less than the heart He has placed in earthen men?
What is "Free Will"?
The American Heritage College Dictionary:
"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:
"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."
Free from what? We just read it:
· Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."
· Free from "CONSTRAINT."
· Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."
· Free from "FATE."
· Free from "DIVINE WILL."
· Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."
We were NOT created in the Image of God we are being created in the Image of God, BIG Difference.
"Let us be making man in our own image," - Concordant Literal
The KJV did a great job convincing everyone they were already like God, when we clearly are not.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
The old Testament is ripe with accounts of obedience and disobedience and the rewards and consequences thereof. In the days of Jesus Christ, God influenced us with his Son whom was sent for a purpose. His purpose was "to seek and to save"; "to find that which was lost"; "that whosoever believed on Him might not perish but have eternal life"; "in order that the world might be saved through him".
And NO PLACE in the O.T. where the consequences EVER eternal torment!!!!! Always Death!! So If Jesus brought eternal torment with Him, then it was better to live under the law and just simply die, than be punished forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Did God mess up because he lost something? NO. Then why did he send Christ, if he is going to be the all in all no matter what?
Because that's exactly HOW He will be ALL in ALL. Do you think some must go to Hell in order for Christ to Be All in ALL?
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Look at the debate we are having. At least one side, ET or US, has to be incorrect because they are mutually exclusive. If we are unable to do anything apart from God's iron hand then how is it we have differing ideas on this?
OR God has revealed some to each of us. I believe He is a mastermind that wants us to search for His truth so He hides it.
Pr. 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory of kings to investigate.
2Th 2:11 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice.
Now who did Jesus usually address their blindness, the sinners, nope, it was the church leaders. So guess where most of the deception of God has been sent....
God so divinely balanced His revelation that a person's disposition dictates what he or she sees there.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Augustine was not part of "the" early church. He was a part of the early RCC church. He may have "championed" an abusive approach, but he didn't "champion" God's word to all. There were some devious leaders then as there are now to be sure. However, if they were as devious with the word as you and others have strongly contended, don't you think they could have done a better job?There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that do not fit the controlling nature to which they aspired.
True but he got you to believe in Hell and that's plenty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
Why stop at "age-during", "age of ages" or "hell"?? If they really wanted to do a thorough job they should have gone much, much further.
Maybe they like all sincere believers and theologians actually thought they were doing the right thing.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
Even the historical "original" texts we have are likely not the first actual penned writings of the authors. It would have been easy to fabricate the documents starting with Basil the great in the second century and on and on even to Augustine in the sixth century.
Unfortunately, you're hitting on a topic few are ready to hear, I'll leave that one alone for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
I agree with the scriptures. I believe that God's will is that none be lost; that all be saved. I don't believe that God wills that all be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4 [God our Savior] who desires all people to be saved...
But just isn't God enough to Do ALL He Pleases. man's desires win. Sort of anti-christ.......... but then then nature of man is anti-christ, except that God drags him.
The fact that you regurgitate that "God bless" at the end of every post does not impress me at all! God never gave His blessings to those who rejected His word.
I think you need to memorize the following scriptures, and pray about them....
2 Thess. 2:9-12
9. "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10. and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not recieve the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12. that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Please notice all the "all"s !
As those who are preaching the Universilist doctrine keep harping...all means all !!!!
Please, please...open your eyes! Do not be amongst those who have fallen for the "strong delusion"!
Please, please "recieve the love of the truth"!
I care about you, and all who are sincere in their search for the truth. I am not wanting for any of you to perish, but for you all to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The fact that you regurgitate that "God bless" at the end of every post does not impress me at all! God never gave His blessings to those who rejected His word.
Hi there, Towhee. I am not trying to impress anyone. God's tender mercies are over all of His works.
Quote:
I think you need to memorize the following scriptures, and pray about them....
2 Thess. 2:9-12
9. "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10. and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not recieve the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12. that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Please notice all the "all"s !
As those who are preaching the Universilist doctrine keep harping...all means all !!!!
Yes, and all are to be restored to God through Jesus Christ. It was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself.
Quote:
Please, please...open your eyes! Do not be amongst those who have fallen for the "strong delusion"!
Please, please "recieve the love of the truth"!
]I care about you, and all who are sincere in their search for the truth. I am not wanting for any of you to perish, but for you all to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I care about you too, Towhee and pray that you will come to a knowledge of the truth on this. We just disagree on this. God bless.
Hi there, Towhee. I am not trying to impress anyone. God's tender mercies are over all of His works.
Yes, and all are to be restored to God through Jesus Christ. It was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself.
I care about you too, Towhee and pray that you will come to a knowledge of the truth on this. We just disagree on this. God bless.
And it does not bother you at all that you may be leading a multitude of people into a false security??? I pray that God will have mercy on you, and all who are pushing this doctrine.
The fact that you regurgitate that "God bless" at the end of every post does not impress me at all! God never gave His blessings to those who rejected His word.
I think you need to memorize the following scriptures, and pray about them....
2 Thess. 2:9-12
9. "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10. and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not recieve the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12. that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Please notice all the "all"s !
As those who are preaching the Universilist doctrine keep harping...all means all !!!!
Please, please...open your eyes! Do not be amongst those who have fallen for the "strong delusion"!
Please, please "recieve the love of the truth"!
I care about you, and all who are sincere in their search for the truth. I am not wanting for any of you to perish, but for you all to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Certainly the strong delusion and false doctrine couldn't be what the orthodox church teaches, since Jesus always aligned with them....
Of course I understand that you do not believe it is possible to follow Him after soul and body death, and ShanaBrown believes ALL will eventually be lead back to Him. She believes this because Jesus paid the wages of Sin: Death, to facilitate resurrection, when the last enemy death will be destroyed. But since we all must die to be reborn and we have not all died, the resurrection has also not occurred. Yes absolutely as believers and followers of Christ, we believe that the sooner that God begins changing your heart and thereby your actions, your character, your desire to sin and disobey, etc., All the Better. Whether in this live or in the resurrection, we all will learn and be dragged by Christ through trials, suffering and general God-given, fatherly, education, to become created in His image as Sons, co-heirs with Christ.
What scripture supports someone who specifically denied Jesus Christ in life yet is taken to heaven afterward?
The parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15 tells us the was lost while and until he returned to the father. This implies if the son had not returned home, he would have died; lost with no recourse to reconcile with the father. Only if and when he returned did the father welcome him and rejoice. All the while he waited, willing to do so. Under the US perspective this would have been a poor parable. There is nothing to imply the son would return for certain.
Similarly with the lost coin, Jesus chose a parable where the outcome could have been disasterous...she may never have found her lost coin! As it is Jesus instead focused on the positive outcome, the joy of victory. The joy for that woman would not havebeen so great if she did not face the very real possibility that she may neve find the coin. For the same reason, the joy in heaven is tremendous not because the outcome is already fixed, but because it isn't.
Luke 15:10 "Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Repentance brings salvation. The joy expressed in heaven is great because the victory is great. To believe the victory is won even for the nonbeliever and unrepentant is to cheapen the blood that was spilled upon the cross. It simply would not have been necessary to take away the sins of the world if the world was to be saved in the first place.
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There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that do not fit the controlling nature to which they aspired.
