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The lack of "Free Will" does not make you a puppet, it makes you a child. I can assure you that while my children have a will to make choices, it is not outside of the container of my guidence. If I knew there were eternal fire and brimstone outside my front door, I would use every resource available to prevent them from going outside, I wouldn't just send a message and hope they'd have faith in me and receive it, I would drag them from such a place. So God is less than the heart He has placed in earthen men?
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
I dare say you could never let your child out of your sight even at an older age as the dangers in this world are very real. And I don't think a one of us could admit they didn't sneak out once or twice. One thing I learned about children is "you can teach 'em but you can't make 'em"! Another thought is they don't really grow up until the step out into the world.
Comparing stepping out into the world to eternal torturous damnation is slightly missing the point.
I was only responding within your analogy. What's more, even though we as parents think we will do anything or that we can truly shield our children from dangers, we cannot. That was my point.
I learned an interesting concept about this. When our children are little we put them in a playpen; a box; a safe place; so that they would not be harmed. As they grow up our job as a parent is to take the child out of the box and put the box into the child. We want the child to have the "box" in their hearts. We want them to choose the good things, the things that please God and lead to blessing.
It is clear salvation includes forgiveness, but does every instance and type of forgiveness include salvation? This is really the point of the verse where Jesus asked God to "forgive them for they know not what they do." I don't think it would be correct to say he was asking for their salvation, only for fogiveness for their current actions (nailing him to the cross).
And what would be the purpose in that if they were still to burn forever?
I was only responding within your analogy. What's more, even though we as parents think we will do anything or that we can truly shield our children from dangers, we cannot. That was my point.
I learned an interesting concept about this. When our children are little we put them in a playpen; a box; a safe place; so that they would not be harmed. As they grow up our job as a parent is to take the child out of the box and put the box into the child. We want the child to have the "box" in their hearts. We want them to choose the good things, the things that please God and lead to blessing.
Still the point is that as a limited power parent, as contrasted with Almighty God, if any of us believed our children were unknowningly or knowingly stepping into "Hell" we would do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING & EVERYTHING to prevent that, regardless of their will. The point is about the heart of a parent, not what a children in their finite wisdom & understanding believe lies ahead.
God created Satan, but it would be a gross error to attribute human value to him or to decide God must be ruthless because he created him as he did. Satan is cast into the lake of fire forever and ever. We may not understand the "why" but we must believe God is omniscient; that he knows what he is doing.
Satan didn't get instructions in what to do, but he was given limitations.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand."
If God created Satan just to burn him forever, I'd consider that "un-loving" at a minimum, wouldn't you? And who knows what "instructions" may or may not have been given to Satan when he was cast from heaven, it is conjecture on anyone's part to say one way of another, however, it was God that created Satan's nature, apparently without a hope of redemption. Again, not loving.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Free will can me free of divine intervention, but as you pointed out it is not the only definition. We should not let this condemn our use of the term.
By free I do not mean an absolute freedom; e.g. I cannot fly no matter what I "will". God gives us do's (things that please him) and don'ts (things that displease him; sins), but he does not force our actions. He does work in our lives to bring about our choosing the do's (and sometimes he decides to leave us in our don'ts).
Do we have freedom in the USA? Is it complete? No. We have laws. I have a saying from a 9th grade teacher I once had. "You have the freedom of choice, but you do not have the freedom of consequence!"
So are you pointing out that we can have freedom to make choices, but not outside of God's Fatherly care? or just His realm of influence? Because making choices UNDER God's authority vs. above His authority is the exact point I've been endeavoring to express. When men believe their choices govern God's options and will, that is placing us above His authority, when we consider that He just might be developing all of creation into His ultimate plan of redemption, that can only happen under His authority. But the idea that He MUST cast many (those that do not believe on Christ's Death, and Resurrection, at the moment they die) in eternal torment says they are beyond His authority to redeem. However, if he casts them into His refiner’s fire until their hearts are purified, He demonstrates, what a mighty, loving, just, and merciful Father He really is.
As I mentioned, there is No scripture that says He does not redeem after death, but it does say he brought resurrection. It also says that every knee will bow and tongue utter allegiance to Him. So after uttering allegiance, does He then say, sorry you didn't believe soon enough, before you died, therefore you are going to hell anyhow? That's not what the scriptures say, they say He then becomes All in All. That means He perfected and completed (as Omega) His plan. The scriptures do not say that after God's judgments comes eternal barbeque, but they do say that His judgments lead to righteousness and rejoicing, albeit, there is some punishment that accompanies judgment of sin.
So are you pointing out that we can have freedom to make choices, but not outside of God's Fatherly care? or just His realm of influence? Because making choices UNDER God's authority vs. above His authority is the exact point I've been endeavoring to express. When men believe their choices govern God's options and will, that is placing us above His authority, when we consider that He just might be developing all of creation into His ultimate plan of redemption, that can only happen under His authority. But the idea that He MUST cast many (those that do not believe on Christ's Death, and Resurrection, at the moment they die) in eternal torment says they are beyond His authority to redeem. However, if he casts them into His refiner’s fire until their hearts are purified, He demonstrates, what a mighty, loving, just, and merciful Father He really is.
As I mentioned, there is No scripture that says He does not redeem after death, but it does say he brought resurrection. It also says that every knee will bow and tongue utter allegiance to Him. So after uttering allegiance, does He then say, sorry you didn't believe soon enough, before you died, therefore you are going to hell anyhow? That's not what the scriptures say, they say He then becomes All in All. That means He perfected and completed (as Omega) His plan. The scriptures do not say that after God's judgments comes eternal barbeque, but they do say that His judgments lead to righteousness and rejoicing, albeit, there is some punishment that accompanies judgment of sin
I know that He didn't, but the point was that it didn't exist in scripture before Him, and there were a LOT of really import events that warranted the discussion, that God completely missed, for a reason.
The absense of it in the OT does not mean it was not a reality. "Jesus" appeared nowhere in the OT either. God didn't miss a really important point; he chose to tell us in his perfect way.
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Originally Posted by Cyno
You eluded to the idea that if everyone was going to be saved anyhow, then why die on the cross? I think I understood this to be your point, correct me if I missed it. No one in their right mind, that truly understood Christ/God's Love/Heaven vs. Eternal Torment/Separation/Hell would EVER knowingly "choose" hell. So, I don't buy the notion any longer that is what the plan of God is. At no point have I claimed that there is no judgment and chastisement for sins, just that these punishments are not eternal. The difference between punishment and revenge is who benefits. So who benefits from eternal babeque? Not God, Not Man.
Nobody actually chooses "hell" over heaven...at least not with full ascent. But, many do choose to ignore, disobey, or otherwise not humble themselves to God. Some do it and blame others, but God holds each accountable.
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,
The same word, aiōn, is used here. This is the same word that many here have said doesn't really mean forever. Anything short of forever presumes God is less than forever too.
God's hatred for sin is incontravertable, yet so is his love nature. The Bible tells us God is love and that God's justice is perfect. Why is it that some here say justice isn't justice if it includes eternal consequence, they say that would be cruel and pointless. It suggests I can be as evil as I want and all that can happen to me is but for a moment in time. Where is the rule of law then? The argument seems to be that "we" think the punishment doesn't fit the "crime". But God is creator, God rules his creation, and God judges his creation. How then can it be cruel if it is his doing. Furthermore, how can any death be less than cruel, if we say eternal damnation is cruel, if it is God's doing.
The key is we should not fix our eyes on "what if we don't". God is not a God of fear; perfect love casts out fear. Instead, we should fix our eyes upon Jesus. He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. No man comes to the father but through him.
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Originally Posted by Cyno
None of the words translated hell are remotely like Dante's Hell. One verse in Rev. (lake of fire) taken literally from a whole chapter of metaphor and connecting the two together is poor theology. Additionally, the premise of your points assumes there is ONE FINAL JUDGMENT DAY that God tosses most of humanity away forever, I do not accept this premise anymore. I tend to believe the "Lake of Fire" is God's all consuming/refining fire that burns away impurities, until the finished product is complete.
Actually it is used once in Rev 19 and three times in Rev 20, and once again in Rev 21. Metaphor or not, he is saying those whose name is not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Not only are we told in 19:10 "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever", but we are never given any indication that anyone thown into the lake of fire ever comes back out.
Rev 21 continues the story by saying "then I saw a new heaven and a new earth (Rev 21:1)..."Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God." (Rev 21:3) "But as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur..."
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it [the new Jerusalem/heaven], nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only thoose who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Even if you were to believe the lake of fire was to be endured only to refine the impurities out that hadn't been refined during your lifetime, do you think any lake of fire could burn long enough to burn away the impurities if the blood of Jesus did not cause one to believe on him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
But that wasn't the point, the point was that Jesus wasn't saying the thief would be with Him there today, but rather that Jesus was saying it today. According to orthodoxy, Jesus went to hell for three days first, then he walked the earth a little while and found Mary, then eventually he ascended, but certainly not that day. Now I know you'll immediately want to pull the day as a thousand years verse, but would that also apply to the 3 days in hell?
Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise."
Some orthodoxy may suggest Jesus spent 3 days in "hell", but not all orthodoxy teaches this because these are speculative conclusions. What is fact is Jesus' words to the man. Besides, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no reason why Jesus couldn't have spent some time "down under" while the man was present with the Lord, God the Father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
No. Man's desire loses; that's the real point. We cannot save ourselves. Jesus can if we would but believe.
Jesus can if we but...[what must we do??]
(a) run a mile
(b) say pretty please
(c) do nothing; wait 'til the end and see
(d) believe
US says (c) nothing, but scripture says (d) believe. What me must do is believe. Belief is not by our strength, but in recognizing our weakness; it is not by our work, but in the work God has done in creating us and drawing us and dying for us; not by our will, but in yielding our will to his.
Lot of potential directions to go here....starting with what scripture says you go to "heaven" when you die?
2 Kings 2:1 Now when the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven...
Matthew 19:20 "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven...
If those treasures are laid there for ourselves, we must be heading there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
Are you sure about that?
Nope. Bad use of words. Certainly sin cannot enter God's presence. What I mean to say is that God created a world in which sin was allowed to enter. If God wanted to save everyone in the first place, he could have excluded sin in the first place. But our loving God chose not to exclude it.
And what would be the purpose in that if they were still to burn forever?
Here is where we can only guess at the infinite wisdom of God. I presume they would be a humble reminder of God's absolute Holiness and the similarly infinite value of Christ' blood on the cross.
When the horrible attacks of 911 occurred, thousands died. Did their deaths give us no meaning or purpose? I believe we are reminded of the value of liberty and its extreme cost. I believe their deaths have changed many of us in ways that seemingly nothing else ever has or ever will. I believe those that lost the most that day have been changed the most.
Still the point is that as a limited power parent, as contrasted with Almighty God, if any of us believed our children were unknowningly or knowingly stepping into "Hell" we would do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING & EVERYTHING to prevent that, regardless of their will. The point is about the heart of a parent, not what a children in their finite wisdom & understanding believe lies ahead.
There is never a good human analogy for God, but that didn't stop Jesus from using them.
Some parents have tried to stop their teens from stepping into what they see as "hell", but their methods of force and control more frequently fail. What has been more successful is a bond with the teen in previous years, a trust established, a respect garnered. Then when told something is to be avoided, they are more likely to obey out of love. Force generally creates fear and loathing.
If God created Satan just to burn him forever, I'd consider that "un-loving" at a minimum, wouldn't you? And who knows what "instructions" may or may not have been given to Satan when he was cast from heaven, it is conjecture on anyone's part to say one way of another, however, it was God that created Satan's nature, apparently without a hope of redemption. Again, not loving.
If God creates a rock that will be thrown into the lake of fire forever, I wouldn't care. Why would I care about Satan if he was created to be a vile, rebellious deceiver intent on drawing me away from the Lord? Let's not attach too much human to him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
So are you pointing out that we can have freedom to make choices, but not outside of God's Fatherly care? or just His realm of influence? Because making choices UNDER God's authority vs. above His authority is the exact point I've been endeavoring to express. When men believe their choices govern God's options and will, that is placing us above His authority, when we consider that He just might be developing all of creation into His ultimate plan of redemption, that can only happen under His authority. But the idea that He MUST cast many (those that do not believe on Christ's Death, and Resurrection, at the moment they die) in eternal torment says they are beyond His authority to redeem. However, if he casts them into His refiner’s fire until their hearts are purified, He demonstrates, what a mighty, loving, just, and merciful Father He really is.
Man deceives himself if he thinks for a moment that he can make choices above God's authority. Neither do our choices govern God's options and will; our choices are subject to his options and will.
Those who deny God and choose to go their own way, never willing to accept God as Lord, are not beyond God's ability to redeem, but neither are they redeemed. Naaman, in 2 Kings 5:13, had a hard time accepting God's direction but was not cleansed until he obeyed a veruy simple task. Of course, Naaman doing it isn't what cleansed him, it was his obedience that God required. If Naaman hadn't obeyed would God have not been able to cleanse him? No.
Likewise, those that choose to ignore God, the Cross, his Word, the evidences of God in creation itself...and all of the many other ways God uses to speak to us, will eventually see and end to God's patience. Is that God's fault? Of course not. He stacked the deck in our favor in that we were predestined to be conformed to him.
Some people get stuck on the idea of "predestination" as if it means we have a one-way ticket outcome. Actually, it simply means God built us, in advance, to have relation with him. It is similar to Prov 22:6, Train up a child in the way he should go. Some versions say "according to his bent". The bent of a child suggests certain proclivities for things. For instance, if you find your child has an ear for music and not for math. His bent is more likely to be a musician than a mathmatician. But, having a 'bent' doesn't mean you can't become a mathmatician. (though you won't probably be as good at it as you would have had you become a musician.) Likewise, being predestined by God does not mean we can't rebel against His desire for us.
God sets the rewards and consequences. He is ever blessing our obedience and, though patient, he is ever disciplining our disobedience. If anyone goes to the lake of fire, it was by their actions, not by God's choosing or predestination. Just because God knows what the final outcomes may be doesn't mean he changes the game. Remember, being omniscient, he knew the final outcomes the momment he decided to utter his creation into being. We are to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" Paul said. Ultimately, make no mistake, God would desire that none is lost, but not at the point of forcing us to love him. He could have done that in the beginning if he chose to, but then we wouldn't have anything to talk about!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
As I mentioned, there is No scripture that says He does not redeem after death, but it does say he brought resurrection. It also says that every knee will bow and tongue utter allegiance to Him. So after uttering allegiance, does He then say, sorry you didn't believe soon enough, before you died, therefore you are going to hell anyhow? That's not what the scriptures say, they say He then becomes All in All. That means He perfected and completed (as Omega) His plan. The scriptures do not say that after God's judgments comes eternal barbeque, but they do say that His judgments lead to righteousness and rejoicing, albeit, there is some punishment that accompanies judgment of sin.
"Even the demons know Jesus is the Son of God and shudder". These deomns will bow on that day and confess Jesus is Lord, but they will have no place in heaven. Their names willnot be found in the lamb's book of life. So it is all will bow down, Satan included, and many others that will end up in the lake of fire.
You know the Bible well, my friend. I trust your relationship with the Lord is a good one too. One day, you and I will meet and we will have all eternity to explore these things together...only then with much better understanding of God!
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