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This passage in Romans seems to be about Israel and that the Israelites have heard the word and not obeyed the gospel (did not have faith) and were going to be provoked by a foolish nation
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Romans 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed that have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.
You are taking it out of context, even a third grader can see that. "Their voice" & "their words" have not reached every person on every continent that has ever lived. This is impossible and simple to see. So the context of the verse is to a specific people in a specific time as meerkat2 has already pointed out.
You can't just shop and chop scriptures and drop them out of context, that is no different than when sound engineers take a large library of sentences spoken by an individual and piece words and phrases together to make them say something completely out of character.
You always have to keep the big picture in mind. Do you like the idea that God will fail to save the world and was a terrible designer? Do you like to elevate man above God? The whole doctrine of man having more power to choose his destiny than his creator does is foolishness propogated by well intentioned people. Just as was Hercules, the Illiad, Icis, Ra, and assorted other stories.
God is almighty and sovereign, and the choices we make are not about determining our destiny, but about becoming Sons, about the process of "being created" in His image, as assuredly we are not at present. Choices yes, but not outside of the guidence of a loving Father. Choices lead to judgment and judment to the Father, not to a fabled hell, taken from pagan mythology.
I have no doubt you will disagree, because you want to be part of a small exclusive, "better-than-thou" saved heavenly yatch club, based on your own abillities to believe and receive, and therefore attain heaven and eternal bliss by your own abilities, but I choose to believe that it's ALLLLLLLL GOD, and I am no more than He makes me to be.
You can't just shop and chop scriptures and drop them out of context, that is no different than when sound engineers take a large library of sentences spoken by an individual and piece words and phrases together to make them say something completely out of character.
You always have to keep the big picture in mind. Do you like the idea that God will fail to save the world and was a terrible designer? Do you like to elevate man above God? The whole doctrine of man having more power to choose his destiny than his creator does is foolishness propogated by well intentioned people. Just as was Hercules, the Illiad, Icis, Ra, and assorted other stories.
God is almighty and sovereign, and the choices we make are not about determining our destiny, but about becoming Sons, about the process of "being created" in His image, as assuredly we are not at present. Choices yes, but not outside of the guidence of a loving Father. Choices lead to judgment and judment to the Father, not to a fabled hell, taken from pagan mythology.
You are taking it out of context, even a third grader can see that. "Their voice" & "their words" have not reached every person on every continent that has ever lived. This is impossible and simple to see. So the context of the verse is to a specific people in a specific time as meerkat2 has already pointed out.
You can't just shop and chop scriptures and drop them out of context, that is no different than when sound engineers take a large library of sentences spoken by an individual and piece words and phrases together to make them say something completely out of character.
I didn't realize I was writing to a third grader...
I wrote earlier the full reference to Isaiah 65 which Paul is quoting in Romans 10:18. What is simple to see is that you are arguing that God's word isn't true, that what is written in Isaiah and Romans is impossible.
No telling how close we are to the end of the age...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
You always have to keep the big picture in mind. Do you like the idea that God will fail to save the world and was a terrible designer? Do you like to elevate man above God? The whole doctrine of man having more power to choose his destiny than his creator does is foolishness propogated by well intentioned people. Just as was Hercules, the Illiad, Icis, Ra, and assorted other stories.
God is almighty and sovereign, and the choices we make are not about determining our destiny, but about becoming Sons, about the process of "being created" in His image, as assuredly we are not at present. Choices yes, but not outside of the guidence of a loving Father. Choices lead to judgment and judment to the Father, not to a fabled hell, taken from pagan mythology.
Keep the big picture in mind and, while you're doing that, be careful not to stumble on the path. You have to watch where you are walking also.
God will not fail to accept anyone who comes to him, but I am afraid many people will fail to come to accept him. While I sometimes wish God would have made life a little kinder and gentler, I snap back and remember he is infinitely wiser than me. His design is perfect, no matter what I think.
Man can never be elevated above God. Just because God gives us a choice and the capacity to choose does not mean it is because we have any power over him at all. I'm not sure God would have chosen the words you used to deride me. Does that mean you exercised power over him because you chose to write them?
We are God's creation. Doesn't God have the right to deal with rebelliousness as he chooses? Don't the devil and his legions go to a lake of fire for ever and ever? Who has the right to say God is too harsh on us...after having given us the perfect opportunity in Christ? My faith is in the Bible and it is no pagan myth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
I have no doubt you will disagree, because you want to be part of a small exclusive, "better-than-thou" saved heavenly yatch club, based on your own abillities to believe and receive, and therefore attain heaven and eternal bliss by your own abilities, but I choose to believe that it's ALLLLLLLL GOD, and I am no more than He makes me to be.
About the only thing I agree with you here is that I will disagree with you. I am no better than you, no matter how you treat me. I may not be a puppet or a door mat, but I am only what God has made me; I have only what God has given me. Heaven is not by my might, but by my willingness to be humble before the Lord and accept him. Jesus Christ did all the work necessary.
You are taking it out of context, even a third grader can see that. "Their voice" & "their words" have not reached every person on every continent that has ever lived. This is impossible and simple to see. So the context of the verse is to a specific people in a specific time as meerkat2 has already pointed out.
You can't just shop and chop scriptures and drop them out of context, that is no different than when sound engineers take a large library of sentences spoken by an individual and piece words and phrases together to make them say something completely out of character.
You always have to keep the big picture in mind. Do you like the idea that God will fail to save the world and was a terrible designer? Do you like to elevate man above God? The whole doctrine of man having more power to choose his destiny than his creator does is foolishness propogated by well intentioned people. Just as was Hercules, the Illiad, Icis, Ra, and assorted other stories.
God is almighty and sovereign, and the choices we make are not about determining our destiny, but about becoming Sons, about the process of "being created" in His image, as assuredly we are not at present. Choices yes, but not outside of the guidence of a loving Father. Choices lead to judgment and judment to the Father, not to a fabled hell, taken from pagan mythology.
I have no doubt you will disagree, because you want to be part of a small exclusive, "better-than-thou" saved heavenly yatch club, based on your own abillities to believe and receive, and therefore attain heaven and eternal bliss by your own abilities, but I choose to believe that it's ALLLLLLLL GOD, and I am no more than He makes me to be.
Look at who he is talking about in the beginning of the chapter - the salvation of physical Israel
The quote that Paul is using he explains is have not "Israel" heard and then he says yes the word went into all the earth, - that is the world that the Israelites live in
Also look at the previous and next chapter it is about Israel being given the word of God - rebelling and because of their rebellion the gospel is given to the gentiles - then the salvation of Israel (God does not cast off forever)
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
What is simple to see is that you are arguing that God's word isn't true, that what is written in Isaiah and Romans is impossible.
Originally Posted by Cyno "Their voice" & "their words" have not reached every person on every continent that has ever lived.
So are you suggesting that "Their voice" & "their words" have already actually reached every person on every continent that has ever lived? You either have to say yes, even though you know that hasn't happened, so you can say these two scriptures are true right now, or you have to recognize that usage/interpretation is not what was intended by the author. You also have to say that 1Cor 15:28 is wrong, where we see that God will be All in All, unless you see that the end game is NOT 90% in hell and 10% in heaven. That's not All in All. Years of indoctrination by the orthodox church makes this difficult to see and accept, truly I did not see it for soooo many years. I believed exactly as you've postulated. So either God in His kindness revealed more to me, or the evil one robbed my understanding, under God's permission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
Man can never be elevated above God. Just because God gives us a choice and the capacity to choose does not mean it is because we have any power over him at all.
It means that man's choice has power over the work of the cross and will of God to save all, since He does pretty clearly state that is His Will. Or do you think that is not really His will? On the Cross, did Jesus say, "Forgive them, only if they choose to receive it, I am willing that most should perish!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
I'm not sure God would have chosen the words you used to deride me. Does that mean you exercised power over him because you chose to write them?
I appologize where I have derided you, my intent was only to challenge the orthodoxy as presented. I have had no intention to be cruel to you, I was wrong and disrespectful. And yes we have choices to make, that is part of the process of maturing, just not the ability to thwart/reject the power of the cross for ever and ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
We are God's creation. Doesn't God have the right to deal with rebelliousness as he chooses? Don't the devil and his legions go to a lake of fire for ever and ever?
Answer #1: of course. Answer #2 is longer, I will borrow text from a friend.
The KJV bible says eternal and many scholars have reaffirmed this translation, therefore it must be eternal, how could it be anything else?
In Revelation 20:10, we find this phrase in the King James Bible:
"...and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
Probably many TENS OF THOUSANDS of scholars, translators, and men of the cloth skilled in "hermeneutics" have looked and read this phrase from the King James, and found it to stand the test of time and scrutiny, to remain as it was originally stated four hundred years ago.
Here is what this phrase "ever and ever" looks like in the Greek when in English, word for word, and then with the word for word English translation underneath each Greek word:
"tous aionas ton aionon"
the eons of the eons
[1] The article "the" (tous) has been completely LEFT OUT in the King James!
[2] The NOUN "eons" or "ages" (aionas) has been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."
[3] The PLURAL noun "eons" has ben changed to the SINGULAR adjective "ever."
[4] The GENITIVE "of" has been changed into the CONJUNCTION, "and."
[5] The NOUN :"eons" (aionon) has once more been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."
Three little words, "ever and ever" has been a hermeneutical NIGHTMARE! It has spawned visions of billions and billions of defenseless humans WRITHING IN UNSPEAKABLE TORTURE BY FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY, and supposedly perpetrated by the god that should be WORSHIPED for such crimes.
But what are the facts? Here are the facts ... Three little words:
FIVE UNSPEAKABLE CRIMES AGAINST ALL KNOWN RULES OF LANGUAGE, GRAMMAR, AND TRANSLATION!!!
And that is but one example of "Christian Hermeneutics" that countless, well intentioned believers have been deliberately deceived by for centuries.
The concept of infinite time did not exist when the scriptures were written, so the interpretation of aion, aionios, eon, and eonios, as meaning eternal or forever and ever, is conjecture and distortion of the languages.
The concept of infinite numbers did appear during the time of the early church, but not eternal time; that appeared several hundred years later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
My faith is in the Bible and it is no pagan myth.
No, it is no myth, but obviously there are many interpretations of it. In no way do I suggest that I have all the answers and have no holes in my doctrine, however, the teachings of common christiandom are so much more problematic. Including the interpretation that hades, sheol, tartarus, and Ghenna = eternal damnation in Dante's hell. In fact the whole teaching of eternal damnation in hell is based on poor translation methods, and a short list of loosely coupled verses, connected by disregarding most rules of language and writing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
... I am only what God has made me; I have only what God has given me. Heaven is not by my might, but by my willingness to be humble before the Lord and accept him. Jesus Christ did all the work necessary.
Couldn't agree more.
Did you know that God deliberately causes deception even in the form of mistranslated scripture - to separate truth lovers from the lovers of injustice!? Paul went as far as congratulating the Bereans for doubting him and searching the scriptures themselves. The parables were not to reveal truth to everyone, but to hide it, that's exactly why Jesus had to do follow-up lessons with His 12 to help them see what He was really saying, to reveal the mysteries of the Kingdom to them. There are many, many examples of God hiding from some and revealing to others as He sees fit, so it is not strange that we all "see" only what He has mercifully shown each of us. He also impossed His will and forced people to do His bidding, repeatedly, so their "free" will was impedded.
You say that you want truth, I believe you, but do you already have it or are there still revelations waiting for you? For me?
I have read the bible using the belief system you have outlined here, in fact for many years, I challenge you to try and read the bible for a while and pretend that you believe God will actually save all and complete His creation. Just try it, it won't mess you up, as you are strong in your beliefs.
Prior to the Dark Ages, the believers in Christ believed in apokatastasis, that is, the restoration of all things as spoken by the prophets. They were universalists. They believed that Jesus Christ was indeed the Savior of all mankind.
When Constantine made Christianity the religion of the Roman empire, the power of love for all was replaced with military and political power. The Church became a tyrant. Those church leaders who embraced universalism were eliminated. The pagan concept of a Hell of eternal damnation was injected. I believe this was the primary reason the Western world went into the Dark Ages. The teaching of Hell perverted the minds of those in Church.
Look at who he is talking about in the beginning of the chapter - the salvation of physical Israel
The quote that Paul is using he explains is have not "Israel" heard and then he says yes the word went into all the earth, - that is the world that the Israelites live in
Your point was that they couldn't possibly have "all heard". So you think at that time that each and every Israelite had heard?? Based on your prior argument...impossible!
Originally Posted by Cyno "Their voice" & "their words" have not reached every person on every continent that has ever lived.
So are you suggesting that "Their voice" & "their words" have already actually reached every person on every continent that has ever lived? You either have to say yes, even though you know that hasn't happened, so you can say these two scriptures are true right now, or you have to recognize that usage/interpretation is not what was intended by the author. You also have to say that 1Cor 15:28 is wrong, where we see that God will be All in All, unless you see that the end game is NOT 90% in hell and 10% in heaven. That's not All in All. Years of indoctrination by the orthodox church makes this difficult to see and accept, truly I did not see it for soooo many years. I believed exactly as you've postulated. So either God in His kindness revealed more to me, or the evil one robbed my understanding, under God's permission.
I am only suggesting what is already written in Isaiah, and he began with "thus saith the Lord". Do you mean to say the text meant something else? Also, I don't see that the timing of 1Cor15:28 correlates so precisely to Isaiah 65 that would render it wrong, but I believe God is all in all, not that he someday will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
It means that man's choice has power over the work of the cross and will of God to save all, since He does pretty clearly state that is His Will. Or do you think that is not really His will? On the Cross, did Jesus say, "Forgive them, only if they choose to receive it, I am willing that most should perish!"
Jesus did not ask for their salvation but for their forgiveness. I also speculate it was for those of us hearing him, as an example of praying for our enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
I appologize where I have derided you, my intent was only to challenge the orthodoxy as presented. I have had no intention to be cruel to you, I was wrong and disrespectful. And yes we have choices to make, that is part of the process of maturing, just not the ability to thwart/reject the power of the cross for ever and ever.
Apology accepted. Thanks brother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
Answer #1: of course. Answer #2 is longer, I will borrow text from a friend.
The KJV bible says eternal and many scholars have reaffirmed this translation, therefore it must be eternal, how could it be anything else?
In Revelation 20:10, we find this phrase in the King James Bible:
"...and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
Probably many TENS OF THOUSANDS of scholars, translators, and men of the cloth skilled in "hermeneutics" have looked and read this phrase from the King James, and found it to stand the test of time and scrutiny, to remain as it was originally stated four hundred years ago.
Here is what this phrase "ever and ever" looks like in the Greek when in English, word for word, and then with the word for word English translation underneath each Greek word:
"tous aionas ton aionon"
the eons of the eons
[1] The article "the" (tous) has been completely LEFT OUT in the King James!
[2] The NOUN "eons" or "ages" (aionas) has been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."
[3] The PLURAL noun "eons" has ben changed to the SINGULAR adjective "ever."
[4] The GENITIVE "of" has been changed into the CONJUNCTION, "and."
[5] The NOUN :"eons" (aionon) has once more been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."
Three little words, "ever and ever" has been a hermeneutical NIGHTMARE! It has spawned visions of billions and billions of defenseless humans WRITHING IN UNSPEAKABLE TORTURE BY FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY, and supposedly perpetrated by the god that should be WORSHIPED for such crimes.
But what are the facts? Here are the facts ... Three little words:
FIVE UNSPEAKABLE CRIMES AGAINST ALL KNOWN RULES OF LANGUAGE, GRAMMAR, AND TRANSLATION!!!
And that is but one example of "Christian Hermeneutics" that countless, well intentioned believers have been deliberately deceived by for centuries.
The concept of infinite time did not exist when the scriptures were written, so the interpretation of aion, aionios, eon, and eonios, as meaning eternal or forever and ever, is conjecture and distortion of the languages.
The concept of infinite numbers did appear during the time of the early church, but not eternal time; that appeared several hundred years later.
The problem I have with "the ages" and "the ages of ages" is that it still doesn't deny intent of eternity. You said, the concept of eternal time did not exist. Yet, God wants to reveal eternal truths to us, so how does he do it? How does he relate eternal time to a people that had not yet grasped what it meant? At a minimum, this may be an example of God relating something that heretofore was incomprehensible.
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