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What scripture supports someone who specifically denied Jesus Christ in life yet is taken to heaven afterward?
The parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15 tells us the was lost while and until he returned to the father. This implies if the son had not returned home, he would have died; lost with no recourse to reconcile with the father. Only if and when he returned did the father welcome him and rejoice. All the while he waited, willing to do so. Under the US perspective this would have been a poor parable. There is nothing to imply the son would return for certain.
Similarly with the lost coin, Jesus chose a parable where the outcome could have been disasterous...she may never have found her lost coin! As it is Jesus instead focused on the positive outcome, the joy of victory. The joy for that woman would not havebeen so great if she did not face the very real possibility that she may neve find the coin. For the same reason, the joy in heaven is tremendous not because the outcome is already fixed, but because it isn't.
Luke 15:10 "Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Repentance brings salvation. The joy expressed in heaven is great because the victory is great. To believe the victory is won even for the nonbeliever and unrepentant is to cheapen the blood that was spilled upon the cross. It simply would not have been necessary to take away the sins of the world if the world was to be saved in the first place.
If you will look at every scripture with the word forgiveness in the NT you will be hard pressed to argue that forgiveness from God and His redemption/salvation do not go hand in hand.
Actually, I don't even have to leave the book of Luke.
Luke 6:37 "judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
luke 23:34 And jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
The word for forgive in 6:37 is apolyō which means:
1) to set free
2) to let go, dismiss, (to detain no longer)
3) to let go free, release
However, the word forgive in 23:34 is aphiēmi which means:
1) to send away
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
Neither word is a substitute for salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
You assume that Satan is not doing exactly what God created Him to do. If God knew what Satan was going to do, and did not plan to save Him through Christ's death, then God is evil and cruel for creating Him to be that way in the first place. The created being can never be more or less than what God intended. Satan does in fact obey the purpose of his creation. Anything less and God is a terrible creator.
He is, and I believe Satan is a good reason to believe God did give us free will. It is US that assumes God gave us no free will thereby making us pawns subject to the evil ways of Satan.
(BTW, did you just say Satan will be saved through Christ?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
The heart of man is at enmity with God, but God is causing us to become Sons. There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between having a "Free Will", devoid of the influence of God, and being able to make choices related to our maturing and becoming Sons.
Matthew 26:41..."The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
God-given free will is not devoid of him. God does allow choices, both good and bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
The lack of "Free Will" does not make you a puppet, it makes you a child. I can assure you that while my children have a will to make choices, it is not outside of the container of my guidence. If I knew there were eternal fire and brimstone outside my front door, I would use every resource available to prevent them from going outside, I wouldn't just send a message and hope they'd have faith in me and receive it, I would drag them from such a place. So God is less than the heart He has placed in earthen men?
I dare say you could never let your child out of your sight even at an older age as the dangers in this world are very real. And I don't think a one of us could admit they didn't sneak out once or twice. One thing I learned about children is "you can teach 'em but you can't make 'em"! Another thought is they don't really grow up until the step out into the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
What is "Free Will"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
The American Heritage College Dictionary:
"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:
"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."
Free from what? We just read it:
· Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."
· Free from "CONSTRAINT."
· Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."
· Free from "FATE."
· Free from "DIVINE WILL."
· Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."
It appears the two given slightly different definitions of free will. No matter. Biblical free will is always within the confines of God's permission and available choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
We were NOT created in the Image of God we are being created in the Image of God, BIG Difference.
"Let us be making man in our own image," - Concordant Literal
The KJV did a great job convincing everyone they were already like God, when we clearly are not.
KJV is not the only translation which uses this script. I don't know why you would argue with being made in God's image anyway. We are made in his image, but that doesn't mean we are identical or that we have any of his power. Simply put, my daughter drew a picture of me recently. You may not recognize the image as me, but she drew it and she says it's me. Scripture tells us we are special in all god's creation for being made in his image. Again, not because we have any power from it, but because God adores us and chose to make us to reflect him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
And NO PLACE in the O.T. where the consequences EVER eternal torment!!!!! Always Death!! So If Jesus brought eternal torment with Him, then it was better to live under the law and just simply die, than be punished forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
Because that's exactly HOW He will be ALL in ALL. Do you think some must go to Hell in order for Christ to Be All in ALL?
You previously posted (maybe it was someone else?) that the idea of eternal time was not a known concept at the time scriptures were inspired. That being the case, how does man, the writer, record a concept that the Holy Spirit, the inspirer, want to convey? Age-during? Eternal? We cannot confine the interpretation of scripture to man's finite understanding entirely.
Jesus did not bring eternal torture with him. Jesus brought salvation from eternal torture. Believe me, you and I would not rather live as under the law. Jesus came to perfect the law and I am ever gratful he did.
I don't think anyone has to go to "hell", but I am convinced many will choose to go. John 3:16 says he came that they might believe. If belief was not neccessary then neither was the death of Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
God so divinely balanced His revelation that a person's disposition dictates what he or she sees there.
This is pure speculation and not sripturally grounded. And I know you know that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
True but he got you to believe in Hell and that's plenty
The arguments against "hell" is that it is used to translate a few different words. Is hell Hades, gehenna, tartarus? Which of these places would we prefer to go for eternity anyway? They are not heaven and in any event all will rise from these places and be judged. So why get so bent out of shape over the use of "hell"? The real point is what happens at the judgement? Will you be heaven bound or bound for the lake of fire? Is your name in the book of life?
We do know while on the cross jesus told the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" so he isn't headed for any of the "hells" (insert hades, gehenna, tartarus). What does this suggest for those that went to "hell" instead of paradise? On the day of judgement they with be judged and their names will not be found in the book of life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
Maybe they like all sincere believers and theologians actually thought they were doing the right thing.....
Now you are contradicting your first argument, that they were doing it for evil purposes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
But just isn't God enough to Do ALL He Pleases. man's desires win. Sort of anti-christ.......... but then then nature of man is anti-christ, except that God drags him.
No. Man's desire loses; that's the real point. We cannot save ourselves. Jesus can if we would but believe.
This could get longer and longer, so I'll try to be brief as is reasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
Actually, I don't even have to leave the book of Luke.
Luke 6:37 "judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
luke 23:34 And jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
The word for forgive in 6:37 is apolyō which means:
1) to set free
2) to let go, dismiss, (to detain no longer)
3) to let go free, release
However, the word forgive in 23:34 is aphiēmi which means:
1) to send away
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
Neither word is a substitute for salvation..
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace[not a sinner's prayer];
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
So there you have it forgiveness and redemption tied together, along with His will causing all that He predestined to happen. Where is the "Free Will" for those that don't want to be predestined?
Further, if forgiveness is simply to dismiss and send away, then sending people to hell must be forgiveness. (Sarcasm) It must be a useless thing to do based on the idea that without a sinner's prayer forgiveness means nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
He is, and I believe Satan is a good reason to believe God did give us free will. It is US that assumes God gave us no free will thereby making us pawns subject to the evil ways of Satan.
(BTW, did you just say Satan will be saved through Christ?)
Not sure if you caught my point here, let me rephrase. If God created Satan, knowing that the End Game for Satan was that he would fall from heaven and never be offered salvation, but instead be burned endlessly, that is ruthless, don't you agree? Satan would not have fallen from Heaven if God did not make him the way that He chose to make him. So the father of lies is doing exactly what He was created to do. So yes he must be obeying what he was designed to do, didn't he even have to get instructions on how to deal with Job? That didn't sound like he was disobeying God and therefore the purpose he was created for. As far as God saving Satan, I didn't even hint my thoughts either way, that would be better on another thread altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
God-given free will is not devoid of him. God does allow choices, both god and bad.
God given will is not devoid of him, but to truly have "free" will you you have to be outside of all influence of God. We are the sum of our life's experiences and learnings, which were imposed upon us from birth, so we can never be outside of the influences of His very creation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
I dare say you could never let your child out of your sight even at an older age as the dangers in this world are very real. And I don't think a one of us could admit they didn't sneak out once or twice. One thing I learned about children is "you can teach 'em but you can't make 'em"! Another thought is they don't really grow up until the step out into the world.
Comparing stepping out into the world to eternal torturous damnation is slightly missing the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
It appears the two given slightly different definitions of free will. No matter. Biblical free will is always within the confines of God's permission and available choices.
Then it is not free
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
KJV is not the only translation which uses this script. I don't know why you would argue with being made in God's image anyway. We are made in his image, but that doesn't mean we are identical or that we have any of his power. Simply put, my daughter drew a picture of me recently. You may not recognize the image as me, but she drew it and she says it's me. Scripture tells us we are special in all god's creation for being made in his image. Again, not because we have any power from it, but because God adores us and chose to make us to reflect him.
Another rephrase; According to orthodoxy, God has 2 spirits and one body. That's not congruent with orthodox man, with spirit, soul, and body. According to orthodoxy, we were once perfect, and like God, while I think there is strong scriptual support that Eve sinned long before eating the fruit, demonstrating that to be false. Further, I think we are being made like him by his judgments and correction, but are not congruent to His image today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
You previously posted (maybe it was someone else?) that the idea of eternal time was not a known concept at the time scriptures were inspired. That being the case, how does man, the writer, record a concept that the Holy Spirit, the inspirer, want to convey? Age-during? Eternal? We cannot confine the interpretation of scripture to man's finite understanding entirely.
I've certainly considered the same thought deeply myself, unfortunately, neither argurment for the meaning can be 100% certain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
Jesus did not bring eternal torture with him. Jesus brought salvation from eternal torture.
I know that He didn't, but the point was that it didn't exist in scripture before Him, and there were a LOT of really import events that warranted the discussion, that God completely missed, for a reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
I don't think anyone has to go to "hell", but I am convinced many will choose to go. John 3:16 says he came that they might believe. If belief was not neccessary then neither was the death of Christ.
You eluded to the idea that if everyone was going to be saved anyhow, then why die on the cross? I think I understood this to be your point, correct me if I missed it. No one in their right mind, that truly understood Christ/God's Love/Heaven vs. Eternal Torment/Separation/Hell would EVER knowingly "choose" hell. So, I don't buy the notion any longer that is what the plan of God is. At no point have I claimed that there is no judgment and chastisement for sins, just that these punishments are not eternal. The difference between punishment and revenge is who benefits. So who benefits from eternal babeque? Not God, Not Man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
This is pure speculation and not sripturally grounded. And I know you know that...
I know that different people perceived Jesus parables and teachings differently, and He could have chosen to be more clear to everyone, but He deliberately was not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
The arguments against "hell" is that it is used to translate a few different words. Is hell Hades, gehenna, tartarus? Which of these places would we prefer to go for eternity anyway? .... The real point is what happens at the judgement? Will you be heaven bound or bound for the lake of fire? Is your name in the book of life?
None of the words translated hell are remotely like Dante's Hell. One verse in Rev. (lake of fire) taken literally from a whole chapter of metaphor and connecting the two together is poor theology. Additionally, the premise of your points assumes there is ONE FINAL JUDGMENT DAY that God tosses most of humanity away forever, I do not accept this premise anymore. I tend to believe the "Lake of Fire" is God's all consuming/refining fire that burns away impurities, until the finished product is complete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
We do know while on the cross jesus told the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" so he isn't headed for any of the "hells" (insert hades, gehenna, tartarus). What does this suggest for those that went to "hell" instead of paradise? On the day of judgement they with be judged and their names will not be found in the book of life.
But that wasn't the point, the point was that Jesus wasn't saying the thief would be with Him there today, but rather that Jesus was saying it today. According to orthodoxy, Jesus went to hell for three days first, then he walked the earth a little while and found Mary, then eventually he ascended, but certainly not that day. Now I know you'll immediately want to pull the day as a thousand years verse, but would that also apply to the 3 days in hell?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
Now you are contradicting your first argument, that they were doing it for evil purposes.
I never said they did it for evil purposes, I simply said they did it.
No. Man's desire loses; that's the real point. We cannot save ourselves. Jesus can if we would but believe.[/quote]
What scripture supports someone who specifically denied Jesus Christ in life yet is taken to heaven afterward?
The parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15 tells us the was lost while and until he returned to the father. This implies if the son had not returned home, he would have died; lost with no recourse to reconcile with the father. Only if and when he returned did the father welcome him and rejoice. All the while he waited, willing to do so. Under the US perspective this would have been a poor parable. There is nothing to imply the son would return for certain.
Similarly with the lost coin, Jesus chose a parable where the outcome could have been disasterous...she may never have found her lost coin! As it is Jesus instead focused on the positive outcome, the joy of victory. The joy for that woman would not havebeen so great if she did not face the very real possibility that she may neve find the coin. For the same reason, the joy in heaven is tremendous not because the outcome is already fixed, but because it isn't.
Luke 15:10 "Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Repentance brings salvation. The joy expressed in heaven is great because the victory is great. To believe the victory is won even for the nonbeliever and unrepentant is to cheapen the blood that was spilled upon the cross. It simply would not have been necessary to take away the sins of the world if the world was to be saved in the first place.
Lot of potential directions to go here....starting with what scripture says you go to "heaven" when you die?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
It simply would not have been necessary to take away the sins of the world if the world was to be saved in the first place.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace[not a sinner's prayer];
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
So there you have it forgiveness and redemption tied together, along with His will causing all that He predestined to happen. Where is the "Free Will" for those that don't want to be predestined?
It is clear salvation includes forgiveness, but does every instance and type of forgiveness include salvation? This is really the point of the verse where Jesus asked God to "forgive them for they know not what they do." I don't think it would be correct to say he was asking for their salvation, only for fogiveness for their current actions (nailing him to the cross).
Not sure if you caught my point here, let me rephrase. If God created Satan, knowing that the End Game for Satan was that he would fall from heaven and never be offered salvation, but instead be burned endlessly, that is ruthless, don't you agree? Satan would not have fallen from Heaven if God did not make him the way that He chose to make him. So the father of lies is doing exactly what He was created to do. So yes he must be obeying what he was designed to do, didn't he even have to get instructions on how to deal with Job? That didn't sound like he was disobeying God and therefore the purpose he was created for. As far as God saving Satan, I didn't even hint my thoughts either way, that would be better on another thread altogether.
God created Satan, but it would be a gross error to attribute human value to him or to decide God must be ruthless because he created him as he did. Satan is cast into the lake of fire forever and ever. We may not understand the "why" but we must believe God is omniscient; that he knows what he is doing.
Satan didn't get instructions in what to do, but he was given limitations.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
God given will is not devoid of him, but to truly have "free" will you you have to be outside of all influence of God. We are the sum of our life's experiences and learnings, which were imposed upon us from birth, so we can never be outside of the influences of His very creation.
Free will can me free of divine intervention, but as you pointed out it is not the only definition. We should not let this condemn our use of the term.
By free I do not mean an absolute freedom; e.g. I cannot fly no matter what I "will". God gives us do's (things that please him) and don'ts (things that displease him; sins), but he does not force our actions. He does work in our lives to bring about our choosing the do's (and sometimes he decides to leave us in our don'ts).
Do we have freedom in the USA? Is it complete? No. We have laws. I have a saying from a 9th grade teacher I once had. "You have the freedom of choice, but you do not have the freedom of consequence!"
"You have the freedom of choice, but you do not have the freedom of consequence!"
Amen....Just1Man! The reality of that quote is so true.
Only God's grace, granted to that one can give the freedom from the consequences of sin!!! Man can not!
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