What Would Have to Occur for Pre-Tribbers to Admit They Were Wrong? (myth, believe)
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I don't care to respond to someone who is obsessed with proving the Rapture wrong and the people who know it's true. The name of the thread is an oxymoron, to say the least. And if you want to know why you aren't getting any responses then take a look at yourself and the obsession that everyone sees except you. Oh, and you might want to look at how many threads you started about it and the threads you've responded to concerning it, and how every one of your conversations turns into it. I feel like I'm speaking to a universalist.
Dear Ilene,
Chill out, and get a grip! I know living in the end times is stressful, but this is ridiculous! I thank God I don't have "last day," and "endtime" stress. It's so PEACEFUL living in the kingdom NOW!
I don't care to respond to someone who is obsessed with proving the Rapture wrong and the people who know it's true. The name of the thread is an oxymoron, to say the least. And if you want to know why you aren't getting any responses then take a look at yourself and the obsession that everyone sees except you. Oh, and you might want to look at how many threads you started about it and the threads you've responded to concerning it, and how every one of your conversations turns into it. I feel like I'm speaking to a universalist.
In other words, I try to refute what you`re saying but can`t. So, I`ll just reply in a condescending tone. That at least makes me feel better.
Boy, Ilene is a mother tiger, isn't she??? She really defends her young. It was just a friendly question, not meant to stir debate. I mean, I freely admitted what it would take for me to change my mind. I just expected some responses from pre-tribbers to say what they would have to see that would--not even change their minds, I didn't ask for that, really--just get them to consider the possibility they were wrong. I would have thought the plain fact that we're not going to be able to squeeze 7 years of tribulation into the time until Rosh Hashana 2015, the time when the last four blood moons that occur on major Israeli historical dates and feast days will happen in this century. Ilene just brushed right past that, didn't she? Didn't even give it a second thought, just leveled her gun barrel at me and let me have it right between the eyes. But I could have anticipated her response. Maybe something like this: "I don't have to concern myself with 4 blood moons! The rapture is going to happen and that's that! If you don't want to believe it, that's your business, but don't try to drag us who know the truth into your hersies. Just wait until the rapture comes and you're left behind! You're cry your eyes out because you refused to accept the truth and it'll serve you right to go through the tribulation!"
Boy, Ilene is a mother tiger, isn't she??? She really defends her young. It was just a friendly question, not meant to stir debate. I mean, I freely admitted what it would take for me to change my mind. I just expected some responses from pre-tribbers to say what they would have to see that would--not even change their minds, I didn't ask for that, really--just get them to consider the possibility they were wrong. I would have thought the plain fact that we're not going to be able to squeeze 7 years of tribulation into the time until Rosh Hashana 2015, the time when the last four blood moons that occur on major Israeli historical dates and feast days will happen in this century. Ilene just brushed right past that, didn't she? Didn't even give it a second thought, just leveled her gun barrel at me and let me have it right between the eyes. But I could have anticipated her response. Maybe something like this: "I don't have to concern myself with 4 blood moons! The rapture is going to happen and that's that! If you don't want to believe it, that's your business, but don't try to drag us who know the truth into your hersies. Just wait until the rapture comes and you're left behind! You're cry your eyes out because you refused to accept the truth and it'll serve you right to go through the tribulation!"
Did I get close, Ilene?
That is the typical approach of Ilene (DOTL). She says it and we are to believe it. And when someone disagrees with her opinions, he is, of course, a heretic! Someone needs to remind her that heresies have been traditionally determined by Church councils. It was a very harsh judgment to be meted out and was not taken lightly. It is shameful to see this arrogant and quick determination of heresy thrown out among believers. Very sad actually!
Don't expect much depth or biblical content reflective of true Bible study from Ilene. She's mostly into her opinions!
Yeah, I didn't even intend to challenge anyone on whatever they replied. I was just curious to hear what pre-tribbers had to say. I would have left it at that. Oh, well......actually she really livened up an otherwise "dead" thread.
If the tribulation already came in the past, why did not our Lord return to save them out of it?
The tribulation is still future as John, who wrote Revelation in 96 A.D., attests. And we, believers of the nations, must meet the Lord in the air prior to that future tribulation.
Eusebius: John did NOT write the Revelation in A. D. 96! Besides, your taking the late date popular today does not relieve you of the obligation to explain what events that were shown to John which were to "shortly" take place because the time was "near" happened "shortly" after A. D. 96. A late date does not negate the clear time indicators and does not justify thrusting the events of the Revelation far into the future!
Furthermore, whom did Paul clearly states was to meet the Lord in the air? Read 1 Thessalonians again as though you are reading a personal letter from Paul to those very Thessalonians. WE are NOT the YE, Eusebius. When will students of God's Word give attention to CONTEXT and audience relevance?
Read 2 Thessalonians 1, Eusebius. Whom did Paul say was going to be given rest AT HIS APPEARING? Whom did Paul clearly say was going to be troubled by God with the very same trouble they had meted out to those Thessalonians AT HIS APPEARING? What is the context, Eusebius? Those very Thessalonians were to be personally given rest AT HIS APPEARING and those very ones (the Jews) who were persecuting them were to be given the same treatment AT HIS APPEARING!
The things written by Paul and Peter and James, etc. were not written in a vacuum. They were written to flesh-and-blood saints of THAT day to instruct THEM first of all and to encourage THEM in the midst of the trials THEY were enduring.
Why is everything always about US? It is NOT! We will never understand what it means to us until we understand what it meant to THEM!
Well I have never seen a pre tribulation in the bible but I also don't chose to file the second coming of Christ Jesus as a past tense event. For those who do I pray that they will adjust quickly when they are staring down the barel of a mark of the beast. I pray they feel the comfort of the Lord when they watch there family persicuted. It makes me sad to see two points of view that do nothing to prepare for what we are warned about in scripture. I would also want to be very very sure that Christ Jesus has ascended from the heavens on Calvery for all the world to see as lightning is seen from the east to the west before I went around saying don't worry he has already come back...YIKES I don't see in the scriptures where that is taken lightly. Both preterism and pre-tribe take a very worldly approach of fearing persicution and want that they have not to face it, bummer. Thrillobyte you I guess like my self you tend to take the slap people in the face to get there attention method that is not always going to get a nice responce as I have found so I would just say be consistant.
Well I have never seen a pre tribulation in the bible but I also don't chose to file the second coming of Christ Jesus as a past tense event. For those who do I pray that they will adjust quickly when they are staring down the barel of a mark of the beast. I pray they feel the comfort of the Lord when they watch there family persicuted. It makes me sad to see two points of view that do nothing to prepare for what we are warned about in scripture. I would also want to be very very sure that Christ Jesus has ascended from the heavens on Calvery for all the world to see as lightning is seen from the east to the west before I went around saying don't worry he has already come back...YIKES I don't see in the scriptures where that is taken lightly. Both preterism and pre-tribe take a very worldly approach of fearing persicution and want that they have not to face it, bummer. Thrillobyte you I guess like my self you tend to take the slap people in the face to get there attention method that is not always going to get a nice responce as I have found so I would just say be consistant.
Can we deal with Scripture and not opinion? Can you take just one preterist belief and SCRIPTURALLY, through your OWN thorough study, prove it wrong? Is it that preterism opposes scripture that you condemn it or because it opposes your beliefs!
16"O Lord,(AN) according to all your righteous acts, let your anger and your wrath turn away from your city Jerusalem,(AO) your holy hill,(AP) because for our sins, and for(AQ) the iniquities of our fathers,(AR) Jerusalem and your people have become(AS) a byword among all who are around us.
break it down Daniel was praying in present and future tense because the people of Isreal were in rebelion. When they as a majority not all rejected Jesus Christ they were not only in rebelion but
also desolating the temple because of false worship so in 70 A.D. God poured out his wrath via Rome on Isreal. Then if you read on you will see that another will come after Gods people have returned to Isreal and again God will pour out his wrath because the one to come attempts to decieve the whole world.
hope you are on today would love to discuss more! don't mind me not responding for a bit brb.
16"O Lord,(AN) according to all your righteous acts, let your anger and your wrath turn away from your city Jerusalem,(AO) your holy hill,(AP) because for our sins, and for(AQ) the iniquities of our fathers,(AR) Jerusalem and your people have become(AS) a byword among all who are around us.
break it down Daniel was praying in present and future tense because the people of Isreal were in rebelion. When they as a majority not all rejected Jesus Christ they were not only in rebelion but
also desolating the temple because of false worship so in 70 A.D. God poured out his wrath via Rome on Isreal. Then if you read on you will see that another will come after Gods people have returned to Isreal and again God will pour out his wrath because the one to come attempts to decieve the whole world.
hope you are on today would love to discuss more! don't mind me not responding for a bit brb.
Greetings, ThirdParty: Yes, let's break down Daniel 9:16 by first of all putting it in its context! In the first year of Darius, Daniel recognized, through reading Jeremiah, that the captivity would be 70 years and that it was nearing its completion. Daniel confesses the sins of his people and called upon God's promised mercies! "We have sinned and rebelled" he states in verse 5. The prophets had often called upon them to repent, but they would not (verse 6). Israel was guilty and without excuse and God was completely justified in the judgment He had brought against them. "Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord" (verse 7).
Daniel appeals to this righteousness in verse 16--"O Lord, according to all Your rigtheousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from your city Jerusalem." What city of Jerusalem? The destruction of that OT city of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was the city Daniel had in mind, and its ruin was a symbol of God's wrath and fury upon Israel. It was for that city that Daniel prayed. In the subsequent verses Daniel is told that in 70 weeks of years the city would be rebuilt and restored (7 weeks). He is further told, however, how that rebuilt city of Jerusalem would again be destroyed (verse 24ff).
In other words, the two cities in view in Daniel's prayer and vision involved the OT city destroyed by the Babylonians and the one rebuilt and later destroyed by the Romans. Daniel refers to no city of Jerusalem beyond the one destroyed in A. D. 70!
Sincerely, Preterist
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She really defends her young. It was just a friendly question, not meant to stir debate. I mean, I freely admitted what it would take for me to change my mind. I just expected some responses from pre-tribbers to say what they would have to see that would--not even change their minds, I didn't ask for that, really--just get them to consider the possibility they were wrong. I would have thought the plain fact that we're not going to be able to squeeze 7 years of tribulation into the time until Rosh Hashana 2015, the time when the last four blood moons that occur on major Israeli historical dates and feast days will happen in this century. Ilene just brushed right past that, didn't she? Didn't even give it a second thought, just leveled her gun barrel at me and let me have it right between the eyes. But I could have anticipated her response. Maybe something like this:
"I don't have to concern myself with 4 blood moons! The rapture is going to happen and that's that! If you don't want to believe it, that's your business, but don't try to drag us who know the truth into your hersies. Just wait until the rapture comes and you're left behind! You're cry your eyes out 
because you refused to accept the truth and it'll serve you right to go through the tribulation!"
