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Ok, im starting this thread, not to argue or prove my own belief, but to ask questions of any and all preterists in order to better understand this teaching. I have many many questions, but i will only ask one at a time.
I would like to start by asking how the dream of Nebuchadnezzar is understood in light of preterism. Specifically the feet of iron and clay ... What does this represent in the preterest perspective?
Thank you for your time and patience as i try to grasp the teaching which frankly is very difficult for me.
I undrestand it and believe it but not enough to explain in the manner preterist and a few others on here would . What i do know is when i first believed and i think it's the same for others , we are bombarded with Jesus is coming again , there's going to be a rapture, a temple is going to be built , sheep and goats, oil in your lamps no oil in your lamps, tribulation, and all of it is taught as something in the future . So before you know it you are caught unawares and drawn into it believing everything is in the future, basically indoctrination by stealth.
Now we are caught hook line and sinker into believing it all refers to future events it seems heresy to believe it any other way but that.
I am ready to read as I am caught halfway between preterism and historicism, believing that Jesus was a prophet sent to the Jews to preach repentance to the Jews and warning of the coming destruction for them in 70AD because of their rejection of him, and in being crucified by them and God raising him from the dead, that he is the Saviour of the world.
Revelation on the otherhand was after Jesus was crucified and was prophecy about the judgement soon to come to the Jews and of the nations
Ok, im starting this thread, not to argue or prove my own belief, but to ask questions of any and all preterists in order to better understand this teaching. I have many many questions, but i will only ask one at a time.
I would like to start by asking how the dream of Nebuchadnezzar is understood in light of preterism. Specifically the feet of iron and clay ... What does this represent in the preterest perspective?
Thank you for your time and patience as i try to grasp the teaching which frankly is very difficult for me.
Dear Ironmaw, I do not speak for every Preterist. I will however give you some verses that hopefully will explain the feet of Iron and clay. I view the feet of iron and clay the condition of the Roman empire at the arrival of the kingdom of God, which was "at hand" when Jesus announced it. Therefore the feet of iron and clay CANNOT refer to a REVIVED Roman empire thousands of years removed from the first century. Iron represents the strength of the Roman empire. Clay is a picture of the Jews scattered throughout the empire, who did not cleave to any Gentile group. Consider the following verses: But now, O LORD, thou art our father, we are THE CLAY, and thou art the potter; and we are the work of thine hand. Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, WE ARE ALL THY PEOPLE. (Isa.64:8-9) Psalm 1 and 2 are powerful kingdom Psalms: The ungodly are not so: but are like the CHAFF which the wind driveth away. Therefore the UNGODLY shall not stand in the JUDGMENT, nor SINNERS in the congregation of the RIGHTEOUS (Psa.1:4). The image of Daniel was smitten and blown away like chaff . The congregation of the righteous is the church. The whole issue at the end of the age was who would stand in the congregation, and who would be judged. The arrival of the kingdom meant judgment for the unbelieving Jews and the Roman empire. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion...Thou shalt break THEM IN PIECES LIKE A POTTER'S VESSEL. (Psa.2:6,9) The potter's vessel is made of clay. Jesus was exalted and placed as king in Zion. His judgment did come upon the image with the feet of iron and clay. Israel was broken in pieces like a potter's vessel. The arrival of the kingdom would occur in the days of these kings. The kings are the Roman Caesars. Jesus arrived in the days of the Roman Caesers announcing the kingdom is at hand. The feet were composed of iron and MIRY CLAY. Miry means "dirt to be swept away, calamity. (Strong's 2917, 2916). The unbelieving Jews would face judgment, and their kingdom removed, just like Babylon (gold), Persia (silver), Greece (Bronze), and Rome (iron).
Last edited by jeapostle; 06-23-2009 at 07:45 AM..
Reason: spacing
Ok, im starting this thread, not to argue or prove my own belief, but to ask questions of any and all preterists in order to better understand this teaching. I have many many questions, but i will only ask one at a time.
I would like to start by asking how the dream of Nebuchadnezzar is understood in light of preterism. Specifically the feet of iron and clay ... What does this represent in the preterest perspective?
Thank you for your time and patience as i try to grasp the teaching which frankly is very difficult for me.
Greetings, Ironmaw: This is a very difficult question to answer without doing an indepth analysis of the entire book of Daniel, especially chapters 2, 7, and 9! Therefore, what follows is a summary of my position.
While Daniel does not specifically spell them out, the kingdoms of Daniel 2 (and the beasts of Daniel 7) appear to be consecutive--Babylon (gold), Medo-Persia (Silver), Greece (Bronze), Rome (iron). The fourth kingdom or nation is represented in Daniel 7 as the fourth beast. He exists during the time of the persecution of the "saints of the Most High" (7:25). This beast persecutes the saints for "a time, times and half a time" (3 and 1/2 years?)--the time Jerusalem was trampled under foot by the Gentiles (Rev. 11). The temporary power and dominion of the fourth kingdom and the fourth beast (and all kingdoms for that matter) are destroyed by the dominion of the kingdom that shall not be destroyed and whose dominion is everlasting (7:14). The spiritual, heavenly kingdom established by Christ is what destroyed this dominion.
The dominions of man and the blindness of the nations were destroyed by the kingdom of the Most High. This all relates and is fulfilled in the 70 weeks later described by Daniel in chapter 9. After 70 A. D. there is essentially only one kingdom that rules and that is the kingdom of God ruled by its king--Jesus. The "kingdom" characteristics exist past A. D. 70 in that all nations continue to exhibit the same spirit of rebellion as exemplified in the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The spirit of the beasts in alive and well, but it is the kingdom of God which rules whether nations acknowledge it or not.
The kingdom of iron mixed with clay was also to be destroyed at the setting up of God's kingdom (the kingdom which was at hand at the time of Christ). The stone cut out of the mountain (Christ and His spiritual kingdom) would consume all of those "kingdoms," but it would endure forever. The Seventy Weeks of Daniel relate this coming kingdom and the coming king and the time frame in which He would accomplish His work of redemption and inauguration of His spiritual kingdom.
Again, this is just a brief summary of a very extensive subject. And again, a study of all of the Book of Daniel would be essential to fully answer your question. It is a big topic! In brief, however, it is my contention that the kingdoms and "beasts" that are depicted are actual kingdoms whose characteristics are depicted in all nations throughout all time. The dominion of the kingdoms of men, however, was destroyed at the establishment of Christ's spiritual kingdom which is not of this world.
Dear Ironmaw, I do not speak for every Preterist. I will however give you some verses that hopefully will explain the feet of Iron and clay. I view the feet of iron and clay the condition of the Roman empire at the arrival of the kingdom of God, which was "at hand" when Jesus announced it. Therefore the feet of iron and clay CANNOT refer to a REVIVED Roman empire thousands of years removed from the first century. Iron represents the strength of the Roman empire. Clay is a picture of the Jews scattered throughout the empire, who did not cleave to any Gentile group. Consider the following verses: But now, O LORD, thou art our father, we are THE CLAY, and thou art the potter; and we are the work of thine hand. Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, WE ARE ALL THY PEOPLE. (Isa.64:8-9) Psalm 1 and 2 are powerful kingdom Psalms: The ungodly are not so: but are like the CHAFF which the wind driveth away. Therefore the UNGODLY shall not stand in the JUDGMENT, nor SINNERS in the congregation of the RIGHTEOUS (Psa.1:4). The image of Daniel was smitten and blown away like chaff . The congregation of the righteous is the church. The whole issue at the end of the age was who would stand in the congregation, and who would be judged. The arrival of the kingdom meant judgment for the unbelieving Jews and the Roman empire. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion...Thou shalt break THEM IN PIECES LIKE A POTTER'S VESSEL. (Psa.2:6,9) The potter's vessel is made of clay. Jesus was exalted and placed as king in Zion. His judgment did come upon the image with the feet of iron and clay. Israel was broken in pieces like a potter's vessel. The arrival of the kingdom would occur in the days of these kings. The kings are the Roman Caesars. Jesus arrived in the days of the Roman Caesers announcing the kingdom is at hand. The feet were composed of iron and MIRY CLAY. Miry means "dirt to be swept away, calamity. (Strong's 2917, 2916). The unbelieving Jews would face judgment, and their kingdom removed, just like Babylon (gold), Persia (silver), Greece (Bronze), and Rome (iron).
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I ask that you be patient with me as i try to understand more fully the preterist doctrine.
ok, there are a few detail i want to understand to fine tune this interpretation.
Dan 2:41
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
So you don't understand this to represent the division of the roman empire into two parts, that is eastern and western Rome, nor do you believe it represents the division of the theocracy of Rome into the political and religious(catholic church) aspects of Rome. But that it represents the "division of the Jews and the gentiles of the roman empire?
ok ... now in Daniel 2:40 we read ...
"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."
Now, we understand that the roman empire did literally break to pieces and subdue the empires before it, and all nations at that time ...
However when it says in Dan 2:44 ...
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
... It isn't to be taken literally? As obviously the roman empire itself lasted for centuries after ad 70. And there have been many kingdoms and Empires(British, Germanic, now American in the last few centuries alone) since the fall of Rome(which could be understood as extensions of the roman empire). So from this point on(daniel 2:44), though the first part of the dream is to be understood literally, this last part is not?
ok, my next question has to do with the resurrection of the dead ... There are many places in the bible that speak of the resurrection for the dead, but i will only refer to a few.
If i understand correctly preterism does not allow for the literal resurrection of the dead ... except for in the case of Christ himself is that correct? Yet we read ...
Rom 6:5
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" ...
How is it you understand this? Christ was not spiritually dead, so what does it mean in the likeness of his death? If there is no literal resurrection, what is the likeness of his resurrection?
also we read in matthew ...
Matthew 27:52-53
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
... so if the resurrection is not literal who where these saints? And why is their resurrection literal but not the final resurrection of the saints as spoken throughout the new testament, as well as the resurrection of the wicked?
and again we read about the literal reality of the ressurrection of the dead in 1 Corinthians ...
1 Corinthians 15:14-16 (New King James Version)
1Cr 15:12-
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
and in the book of job we read...
job 19:25-27
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
How is all this to be understood if there is no final resurrection of the dead?
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I ask that you be patient with me as i try to understand more fully the preterist doctrine.
ok, there are a few detail i want to understand to fine tune this interpretation.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
So you don't understand this to represent the division of the roman empire into two parts, that is eastern and western Rome, nor do you believe it represents the division of the theocracy of Rome into the political and religious(catholic church) aspects of Rome. But that it represents the "division of the Jews and the gentiles of the roman empire?
ok ... now in we read ...
"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."
Now, we understand that the roman empire did literally break to pieces and subdue the empires before it, and all nations at that time ...
However when it says in ...
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
... It isn't to be taken literally? As obviously the roman empire itself lasted for centuries after ad 70. And there have been many kingdoms and Empires(British, Germanic, now American in the last few centuries alone) since the fall of Rome(which could be understood as extensions of the roman empire). So from this point on(daniel ), though the first part of the dream is to be understood literally, this last part is not?
ok, my next question has to do with the resurrection of the dead ... There are many places in the bible that speak of the resurrection for the dead, but i will only refer to a few.
If i understand correctly preterism does not allow for the literal resurrection of the dead ... except for in the case of Christ himself is that correct? Yet we read ...
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" ...
How is it you understand this? Christ was not spiritually dead, so what does it mean in the likeness of his death? If there is no literal resurrection, what is the likeness of his resurrection?
also we read in matthew ...
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
... so if the resurrection is not literal who where these saints? And why is their resurrection literal but not the final resurrection of the saints as spoken throughout the new testament, as well as the resurrection of the wicked?
and again we read about the literal reality of the ressurrection of the dead in 1 Corinthians ...
(New King James Version)
1Cr -
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
and in the book of job we read...
job
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
How is all this to be understood if there is no final resurrection of the dead?
Dear Ironmaw, I believe it is important to consider the "timing" aspect of the establishment of the kingdom to properly interpret these verses. Jesus announced the kingdom was "at hand." and Daniel said in the "days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed." (Dan.2:44). Therefore, I conclude that the "at hand" Jesus was referring to is the same as "the days of these kings." The ruling kings at the time of Jesus' announcement were the Roman kings, which was the fourth empire (Iron) seen in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The Roman empire did last for a period of time, but it was doomed with the establishment of the church. The dream ends with the legs of iron, and feet of clay and iron. There have been many empires since that time, but the dream is specific in that it is dealing with the "timing" of the establishment of the kingdom. It is not a dream that deals with the entire course of human history, but is dealing with the establishment of the kingdom. The four empires in Nebuchadnezzar's dream were kingdoms that ruled over Israel, the final being Rome. Israel was judged and scattered. Israel ceased from being a nation, and only those who believed entered the kingdom, and submitted themselves to the Messiah, Jesus, the son of David. The dream is confined to Israel, and the plan of God to establish his rule. Many interpreters lengthen the dream to thousands of years. Daniel is dealing with Old Covenant Israel, and the establishment of the kingdom. God promised Israel he would establish his kingdom. Israel would be the recipient of these kingdom blessings. These kingdom blessings include salvation, redemption, outpouring of the Holy Spirit, New Covenant, and peace (shalom). These blessings did come to Israel, and many Jews were saved and received the kingdom. Jesus told Nicodemus that the new birth was necessary to enter the kingdom (John 3). In other words the blessings of the kingdom would not come to Israel through natural descent from Abraham, but spiritual birth from heaven. The Kingdom is spiritual (not meat and drink- Rom.14:17). If you take the dream beyond Old Covenant Israel, and the establishment of the kingdom among them, I believe you run into problems, and have to stretch the text. Since the days of Rome millions of people have believed the gospel and entered the kingdom through faith. Those ancient kingdoms in the dream no longer exist, they are history, but the kingdom, and the church are still here. Dear Ironmaw, Thanks for the new thread. I believe one of the strengths of Preterism is interpreting scripture in context, and looking at the time statements. Daniel said it was in the "days of these kings." Futurists have to teach a REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE, in order to have a future fulfillment. Furthermore, many are still looking for a kingdom with OBSERVATION (physical). The kingdom does not come with OBSERVATION (Luke 17:20-21). The kingdom has been here since the first century, but it can only be spiritually discerned. I will respond to the resurrection question on another post. Respond to this one, and tell me your thoughts. Sincerely Yours, jeapostle.
Dear Ironmaw, It is sown a NATURAL BODY, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. The resurrected body is a SPIRITUAL. It is a body, but it is called a SPIRITUAL BODY. It is not a FLESHLY BODY. Jesus had a SPIRITUAL BODY. Jesus was able to APPEAR AND DISAPPEAR. So the SPIRITUAL BODY CAN BE SEEN OR UNSEEN. People generally are looking for PHYSICAL BODIES to come out of PHYSICAL GRAVES, VISIBLE TO THE HUMAN EYE. JESUS did appear to the HUMAN eye, but no human eye saw him resurrected. He only appeared after his resurrection with a spiritual body. The KJV of Job 19:26 does say. "in my flesh, I shall see God." Other translations translate this verse to say, "out of my flesh, I shall see God (Berkeley). and "without my fleah I shall see God (ABPS), and then without my flesh shall I see God (ASV). The resurrection was THE HOPE OF ISRAEL (Acts 24:14-15), and would occur at the end of their age: And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Dan.12:2). The fulfillment of this would occur, "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be FINISHED (Dan.12:7) The resurrection is also connected to the passing of the law. "...death is swallowed up in victory. O death, death where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the LAW. (1 Cor.15:54-56). The resurrection was a promise to Old Covenant Israel and is connected to the removing of the vail (the law). And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. And he will swallow up DEATH in victory; and the LORD GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces...(Isa.25:7-8). The vail refers to the law (2 Cor.3:12-16). The resurrection is also seen in Revelation, which was "at hand," and "soon to come to pass." (Rev.1:1-3). There is a harmony in scripture. The resurrection was an end of the age event, that coincides with the passing of the law, and the end of the age. it is connected to Israel, and it is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant promises given to them. Many are looking for something visible(physical), but the resurrection body is a SPIRITUAL BODY (1 Cor.15:44).
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I ask that you be patient with me as i try to understand more fully the preterist doctrine.
ok, there are a few detail i want to understand to fine tune this interpretation.
Dan 2:41
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
So you don't understand this to represent the division of the roman empire into two parts, that is eastern and western Rome, nor do you believe it represents the division of the theocracy of Rome into the political and religious(catholic church) aspects of Rome. But that it represents the "division of the Jews and the gentiles of the roman empire?
ok ... now in Daniel 2:40 we read ...
"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."
Now, we understand that the roman empire did literally break to pieces and subdue the empires before it, and all nations at that time ...
However when it says in Dan 2:44 ...
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
... It isn't to be taken literally? As obviously the roman empire itself lasted for centuries after ad 70. And there have been many kingdoms and Empires(British, Germanic, now American in the last few centuries alone) since the fall of Rome(which could be understood as extensions of the roman empire). So from this point on(daniel 2:44), though the first part of the dream is to be understood literally, this last part is not?
ok, my next question has to do with the resurrection of the dead ... There are many places in the bible that speak of the resurrection for the dead, but i will only refer to a few.
If i understand correctly preterism does not allow for the literal resurrection of the dead ... except for in the case of Christ himself is that correct? Yet we read ...
Rom 6:5
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" ...
How is it you understand this? Christ was not spiritually dead, so what does it mean in the likeness of his death? If there is no literal resurrection, what is the likeness of his resurrection?
also we read in matthew ...
Matthew 27:52-53
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
... so if the resurrection is not literal who where these saints? And why is their resurrection literal but not the final resurrection of the saints as spoken throughout the new testament, as well as the resurrection of the wicked?
and again we read about the literal reality of the ressurrection of the dead in 1 Corinthians ...
1 Corinthians 15:14-16 (New King James Version)
1Cr 15:12-
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
and in the book of job we read...
job 19:25-27
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
How is all this to be understood if there is no final resurrection of the dead?
Greetings, Ironmaw: I would add to jeapostle's excellent post that the "resurrections" of bodies following Jesus' crucifixion are more accurately considered resuscitations. Lazarus also was not actually resurrected. He was resuscitated and had to once again die physically. Since nothing further is said about those whose bodies were raised from their graves (Mat. 27:51, 52), I must assume that these also were resuscitations and not resurrections.
Preterists do not deny the resurrection of the dead. I do not believe it is fair to accuse them of such a thing simply because we take a different view of the nature of the resurrection. I want to do this subject the justice it deserves, so I would like to take the time to outline it biblically and logically.
I look forward to getting back to you with what I believe the Scriptures teach about the nature and timing of the resurrection (by tomorrow!). Thanks for your patience.
In Christ, Preterist
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