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Endtime Article - E.0002b
1. There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Allow us to share one, as follows:
2. Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly). So, here is our first question: Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?
3. The Preterist position teaches that this prophecy was fulfilled in the year 70 A.D. when the Roman General Titus and his Roman army conquered Jerusalem.
4. But Rome is virtually due WEST of Jerusalem and the prophecy (Rev 16:12) says that the Euphrates was dried up so that the kings of the EAST could be prepared to make war against Jerusalem at Armageddon.
5. The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, and make further questions on the matter superfluous.
[Credit and thanks to Irvin Baxter for presenting this line of reasoning.]
So what do you all think? Does this refute preterism or is there a valid explanation?
Preterism is the right view, and does not fall apart. It is just folks taking on the view need time to understand it completely. About the Euphrates:
Roman legions are usually associated with infantry, but four legions were drawn from the area of the Euphrates under one Oriental King, Antiochus of Commagene, and another Oriental King, Sohemus, sent a contingent both of which were mostly cavalry which like their Parthian cousins to the north is the way they usually fought. These were literally fierce hordes of barbarian horsemen which would have been terrifying to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Releasing the four angels prepared for that hour appears to reference the releasing of the four legions who would kill not a third of the population of the entire planet, but of the area around Judea.
Five months...sound familliar? ...Rev 9:5;10 ........is the time period that the Roman siege lasted around Jerusalem. During this time the Romans didn’t try to take the city, but let the work of the siege slowly weaken the city defenders and bring conditions upon them that could fit the definition of a great tribulation.
During the siege the Zealots inside Jerusalem set fire to the foodstocks that were stored up thinking that without food the inhabitants would be more compelled to join them in fighting the Romans.
Preterism is the right view, and does not fall apart. It is just folks taking on the view need time to understand it completely. About the Euphrates:
Roman legions are usually associated with infantry, but four legions were drawn from the area of the Euphrates under one Oriental King, Antiochus of Commagene, and another Oriental King, Sohemus, sent a contingent both of which were mostly cavalry which like their Parthian cousins to the north is the way they usually fought. These were literally fierce hordes of barbarian horsemen which would have been terrifying to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Releasing the four angels prepared for that hour appears to reference the releasing of the four legions who would kill not a third of the population of the entire planet, but of the area around Judea.
Five months...sound familliar? ...Rev 9:5;10 ........is the time period that the Roman siege lasted around Jerusalem. During this time the Romans didn’t try to take the city, but let the work of the siege slowly weaken the city defenders and bring conditions upon them that could fit the definition of a great tribulation.
During the siege the Zealots inside Jerusalem set fire to the foodstocks that were stored up thinking that without food the inhabitants would be more compelled to join them in fighting the Romans.
The information is out there.
Thanks for the post... I have no doubt you are correct.... funny though that the author of this says "The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, and make further questions on the matter superfluous."
Seems he is not a historian. But he rests his whole case on it, the rest of it is unimportant.... YIKES!
I hear you. Futurists are left divided across the whole board of eschatology...even partial preterists. However, in my time as being a Full Preterist, I have seen nothing but unity and the zeal for a better understanding of the view without being on the defense/offense all the time.
I hear you. Futurists are left divided across the whole board of eschatology...even partial preterists. However, in my time as being a Full Preterist, I have seen nothing but unity and the zeal for a better understanding of the view without being on the defense/offense all the time.
It is true. I found this account of the preterist view from 1885:
"One circumstance will suffice to show the deplorable famine that prevailed in the city. An unhappy and starving mother, in fulfillment of the prophecy of Moses (Deut. 28:56, 57), was reduced to the necessity of feeding upon her own child. “This lady’s name was Miriam, who had taken refuge, with many others, in this devoted city, from the breaking out of the war."
There is a ton of other info as well, but I don't think christians realize how bad it was. And that the christians escaped out of the city during the 2 1/2 year lull in the war. If anyone deserved to be "the elect" or "caught up" it was the christians at that time who were being slaughtered, tortured, beheaded, and torn to bits... And they still managed to spread the word!
Last edited by june 7th; 09-27-2009 at 11:38 AM..
Reason: Modified to adhere to copyright.
Futurists also forget that the 42 months of Daniel and Revelation were fulfilled by Titus ("and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26) Titus was a prince, "the" princes--son of Vespasian, who became emperor in summer of 70 AD. Titus, barely one month later on 9 AV 70 AD, 42 months, 1260 days after Vespasian first entered Jerusalem in the spring of 67 AD to put down the revolt watched as the Roman army set fire to the temple and razed it to the ground in direct fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. It all fits like a glove.
Futurists also forget that the 42 months of Daniel and Revelation were fulfilled by Titus ("and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26) Titus was a prince, "the" princes--son of Vespasian, who became emperor in summer of 70 AD. Titus, barely one month later on 9 AV 70 AD, 42 months, 1260 days after Vespasian first entered Jerusalem in the spring of 67 AD to put down the revolt watched as the Roman army set fire to the temple and razed it to the ground in direct fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. It all fits like a glove.
Yes it all does! The author of the excerpt I gave in my previous post states:
"The crime alleged against the Christians at this period was that they were atheists, simply because they refused to acknowledge or worship the gods of the heathen, or even throw a grain of incense on one of their altars. And as Christians had neither temples, nor altars, nor sacrifices, it was taken for granted that they worshiped no god, were haters of the gods, and could be nothing better than atheists." Chapter VIII - The Destruction of Jerusalem-The Three Periods of the Apostolic Age-The Book of Revelation.
Ahh, futurists have it so nice. They don't have to prove a thing. For them it's all somewhere out there in the future---the rapture, the antichrist, the millennial reign. Preterists, on the other hand, have to prove to the satisfaction of historians that all prophecy has been fulfilled. It's a gargantuan task, one which I think preterists have achieved admirably. Were even one prophecy to be shown not to have been truly fulfilled beyond any shadow of doubt, then preterism would fall like a house of cards. That preterism still stands all these centuries later is proof positive of its validity. Futurists tend to forget that the odds against being able to fit the thousands of biblical prophecies into history with such accuracy are quintillions to one, much greater than the odds against Jesus fulfilling all 300 or so prophecies of Himself.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-27-2009 at 10:09 AM..
Ahh, futurists have it so nice. They don't have to prove a thing. For them it's all somewhere out there in the future---the rapture, the antichrist, the millennial reign. Preterists, on the other hand, have to prove to the satisfaction of historians that all prophecy has been fulfilled. It's a gargantuan task, one which I think preterists have achieved admirably. Were even one prophecy to be shown not to have been truly fulfilled beyond any shadow of doubt, then preterism would fall like a house of cards. That preterism still stands all these centuries later is proof positive of its validity. Futurists tend to forget that the odds against being able to fit the thousands of biblical prophecies into history with such accuracy are quintillions to one, much greater than the odds against Jesus fulfilling all 300 or so prophecies of Himself.
You are right. prophecies are proven right after the fact... so I guess they will just keep waiting.
After 40 years I just couldn't do it any longer. Also, in the interim I learned a lot of hidden truth about the "rapture".
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But he rests his whole case on it, the rest of it is unimportant.... YIKES!
