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Right manifested, but they were before manifested...
Yes they were. That's not the point. Anyone who is a seed of Abraham does the works of Abraham. Anyone who is a seed of the devil does the works of the devil. In this the two seeds are manifest (made visible). Therefore those who murdered Christ were the seed of the devil. By their fruits you will know them. Yet they were told to repent and receive the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 06-22-2009 at 07:52 AM..
I didn't say it was. I was referring to God dieing for the whole "world"
Christ dying only for the elect is not found in scripture. It is a deduced doctrine based on two things:
1. The sovereignity of God and His ability to save sinners
2. That God won't save all
It requires changing words in scripture like "all people" and "the whole world" and "not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world" to somehow read "the elect only". Reading those phrases that way is preposterous but especially the last one which goes out if it's way to say that Christ did not die only for the sins of those who are presently believing.
Christ dying only for the elect is not found in scripture. It is a deduced doctrine based on two things:
1. The sovereignity of God and His ability to save sinners
2. That God won't save all
It requires changing words in scripture like "all people" and "the whole world" and "not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world" to somehow read "the elect only". All are preposterous but especially the last one.
Yes it is based on scripture; the onus is on you actually to prove that God died for the whole world that doesn't "believe"?
Yes it is based on scripture; the onus is on you actually to prove that God died for the whole that doesn't "believe"?
Doesn't believe what? What is it that the non elect were supposed to believe? That Christ did not die for them?
There is no way to prove it if the exact words that state exactly that are going to be reworded from their obvious meaning.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Who is "our" in this verse? It is "my little children" from the prior verse. Those whose "sins are forgiven" verse 12. Those who have "overcome the wicked one" verse 13. Those are believers.
Doesn't believe what? What is it that the non elect were supposed to believe? That Christ did not die for them?
There is no way to prove it if the exact words that state exactly that are going to be reworded from their obvious meaning.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Who is "our" in this verse? It is "my little children" from the prior verse. Those whose "sins are forgiven" verse 12. Those who have "overcome the wicked one" verse 13. Those are believers.
Christ did not die for their sins only.
(John 3:16) 16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
They still have to believe. So how does God save people who don't believe?
the word for destroy is: phthora and it means:
corruption, destruction, perishing a) that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable b)in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell 2) in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay
this the perfect example for a theological biased dictionary (the same with gehenna),
you must agree, that there was hardly a Greek word before the Christian era, that meant something in a theological Christian sense
therefore all these meanings in a "Christian sense" are just biased definitions by men of later generations to defend their doctrines.
I guess it's the Strong numbers? I proved at least one of his definitions wrong by the NT
theological definitions I thing have not the slightest worth, cause it are no honest men.
Quote:
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made [born] to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
by the way do you think beasts will suffer eternal misery in hell in a Christian sense?
2Peter 2:12 (Green's literal)
But these as unreasoning natural beasts, having been born for capture and corruption (phthora), speaking evil in that of which they are ignorant, they shall utterly perish in their corruption (pthora)
the same word jJora [phthora] is applied to the beasts alike
Yes it is based on scripture; the onus is on you actually to prove that God died for the whole world that doesn't "believe"?
Romans 11 also proves it.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
1. It says "the election obtained it"
2. Therefore anyone who did not "obtain it" is not in "the election"
3. Yet verse 23 says God can graff them in again if the repent and believe
4. If Christ did not die for those not in "the election" then repenting and believing would not help them. In fact they would be believing a lie.
this the perfect example for a theological biased dictionary (the same with gehenna),
you must agree, that there was hardly a Greek word before the Christian era, that meant something in a theological Christian sense
therefore all these meanings in a "Christian sense" are just biased definitions by men of later generations to defend their doctrines.
I guess it's the Strong numbers? I proved at least one of his definitions wrong by the NT
theological definitions I thing have not the slightest worth, cause it are no honest men.
by the way do you think beasts will suffer eternal misery in hell in a Christian sense?
2Peter 2:12 (Green's literal)
But these as unreasoning natural beasts, having been born for capture and corruption (phthora), speaking evil in that of which they are ignorant, they shall utterly perish in their corruption (pthora)
the same word jJora [phthora] is applied to the beasts alike
You can call it what you want bias, but the truth remains..your rejecting scripture..
(John 3:16) 16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
They still have to believe. So how does God save people who don't believe?
By unblinding them.
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