Jesus is willing that some shall Perish (church, believer, prayers)

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come

Romans 11 also proves it.

• Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1. It says "the election obtained it"
2. Therefore anyone who did not "obtain it" is not in "the election"
3. Yet verse 23 says God can graff them in again if the repent and believe
4. If Christ did not die for those not in "the election" then repenting and believing would not help them. In fact they would be believing a lie.

I have said from the beginning that there are verses in the bible that contradict the election and that is due to the Mysteries of God BUT here is your problem you must overcome. How can you believe and repent? How can one go against his own sinful nature and turn to God on his own? How can someone believe or love God when the bible is clear that is impossible without Him drawing us, so if someone believes then it was granted it to him by God therefore that individual is the elect.

No matter how you slice it and dice it, it always comes back to the elect.

(John 6:44)
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (DRAGS) him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

[svenM]

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
(John 12:32)

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by svenM

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
(John 12:32)

Yes He will; His elect.

[svenM]

you're adding to the scripture in my opinion, whenever the bible says *all*, you read *all the elect*, but if only the elect where meant, then why does the bible not say so?

@ beloved57, do you think Jesus threatened ONLY the "serpent seed" with "hell"?

[Fundamentalist]

(John 17:8-10)

John 17:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)

6"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7"Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by svenM

you're adding to the scripture in my opinion, whenever the bible says *all*, you read *all the elect*, but if only the elect where meant, then why does the bible not say so?

@ beloved57, do you think Jesus threatened ONLY the "serpent seed" with "hell"?

I am not adding to the scripture, the scripture is CLEAR. You must believe in order to be saved. If it is God's will for ALL men to be saved then why aren't they saved? I am not going to assume why the bible does that? I can only go from scripture. The bible is clear that the world must qualify and that qualification is "belief" All those verses you gave with "all", "world" etc... comes with a qualification and only the elect qualify.

[beloved57]

Originally Posted by svenM

you're adding to the scripture, whenever the bible says *all*, you read *all the elect*, but I only the elect where meant, then why does the bible not say so?

@ beloved57, do you think Jesus threatened ONLY the "serpent seed" with "hell"?

The bible is all about the elect of God and their complted salvation through Jesus christ..

There is no salvation for the devil and his seed..gen 3:


14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The seed of the women has been ordained to salvation, the seed of the serpent to damnation..

[svenM]

8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

9"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

1 John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The seed of the women has been ordained to salvation

why did Jesus then threaten the seed of women with "hell"?

Mt. 5:22

But, I, say unto you, that, every one who is angry with his brother, shall be, liable, to judgment, - and, whosoever shall say to his brother, Worthless one!, shall be, liable, to the high council; and, whosoever shall say, Rebel!, shall be, liable, unto the fiery gehenna.

Mt. 5:48

Ye, therefore, shall become, perfect: as, your heavenly Father, is perfect.

Jesus called God the heavenly father of those that He had threatened with gehenna!

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by svenM

1 John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Context. John was talking to Jews who grew up under a racist program of salvation in which they believed the gospel was only meant for them and not the gentiles. John was stressing the world to the Jews, meaning salvation was not only for their Jewish little world but the whole world, the chosen/ elect among the Gentiles which was mind boggling to hear for the average Jew.

If John was talking to Christians who did not believe that the gospel was just for them then wouldn't stressing the "whole world" be redundant?

[beloved57]

1 John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The whole world of the elect..not the seed of the devil..christ did not propitiate God on behalf of satan..