immortal soul and the doctrine everlasting torment (Jehovah, preacher, belief)

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by spm62

So the dead know nothing...are,deaf,dumb,and mute. They can do nothing but turn to dust. But, they are watching over us. Alrighty then.. Once again, I`ll ask for scripture that says they watch over us. So far I have asked for scripture as a basis for other things you have said, but you haven`t given any. It`s hard to take you seriously alan if you have no scripture to back up what you are saying.

Spm, those of you who believe that we basically cease to exist make a pretty strong Biblical case. If someone has not been born again, I can see where you may very well be right that they consciously cease to exist until the resurrection since man is not immortal.

However, if you are saying believers face the same fate, I keep going back to the gospel of John and Jesus speaking to Martha, "

Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

It seems to me* that Jesus here is revealing a new thing to Martha. He's saying, your hope is not just in a future resurrection as your forefathers believed, Martha, but if you believe in Me you have eternal life right now. Jesus says we won't die. Obviously we all die physically, so He is saying our spirits/souls/whatever go on and that indicates a conscious existance of those believers who physically die, imho, "the cloud of witnesses" that Alan speaks of.

*Everything from this point on is qualified by the statement "It seems to me". I will not be offended if I am proven to be wrong.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by spm62

So the dead know nothing...are,deaf,dumb,and mute. They can do nothing but turn to dust. But, they are watching over us. .

Yes,
the dead know nothing.
Go ask a dead body any question you want....it doesn't matter how long you sit there and listen for an answer...they will not speak.
You can talk and talk to a dead person,,,they will not turn their head to listen.
You can tell a funny joke, the dead to not laugh
You can tell a sad story, the dead do not cry.

However as we read in Hebrews 12:1 where the writer has been talking about all he dead Saints, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses...so watch what you are doing, they who have went before you are watching!

Then there is the conundrum that Paul faced when he knew he should seek to live longer in order to help his church children, but yet he also longed to die and be with Christ in Philippians 1:23.
Clearly soul-sleep is not on Paul's mind at all.
Paul builds on this idea of going to be with the Lord in 2 Corinthians 5 where he talks about being be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Now when will you and I ever be 'away from our bodies?"
The only time that will be true is after we die yet before we rise up from the grave in our new bodies of flesh and bone.
so during this short time...(well short in terms of the "forever" we will be in our new bodies) we will be without a body but at home with the Lord.

So lets sum it all up:
When my dad died, his body of flesh and blood was cold.
It knew nothing
It felt nothing
It could not speak
It could not think
It could not smile
It could not reason
a dead person is a lifeless shell...soon to be dust and forgotten by all.

But the spirit of the person is in the tender arms of the father in heaven.
There although we are away from our bodies we are yet "at home" with the Lord...

This is also why when Stephen was about to die, he called out "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"...(Acts 7:59)

Had soul sleep been in poor Stephan's future he would not have had to call out such a thing as his spirit was not going anywhere...

But just as with Jesus who sent his own spirit to the Father, so we read that Stephens spirit went to heaven while his dead body went into the grave...

[spm62]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Spm, those of you who believe that we basically cease to exist make a pretty strong Biblical case. If someone has not been born again, I can see where you may very well be right that they consciously cease to exist until the resurrection since man is not immortal.

However, if you are saying believers face the same fate, I keep going back to the gospel of John and Jesus speaking to Martha, "

Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

It seems to me* that Jesus here is revealing a new thing to Martha. He's saying, your hope is not just in a future resurrection as your forefathers believed, Martha, but if you believe in Me you have eternal life right now. Jesus says we won't die. Obviously we all die physically, so He is saying our spirits/souls/whatever go on and that indicates a conscious existance of those believers who physically die, imho, "the cloud of witnesses" that Alan speaks of.

*Everything from this point on is qualified by the statement "It seems to me". I will not be offended if I am proven to be wrong.

Hi Pleroo, thanks for having an open mind about this. It is refreshing to see someone at least say, it seems to me or it`s my belief instead of acting like they know 100% without a doubt about such things. I think people lose all credibility when they come across acting as if they know all the truth. So thanks for checking your ego at the door.
Death is referred to as sleep time and again in the scripture. In the OT as well as the NT. Even Jesus himself referred to death as sleep. So we have to look at sleep and what happens when we sleep. Are we dead..no. Are we aware of our surroundings...no. Are we conscious...no. That harmonizes with so many other scriptures that say the dead know nothing or the dead are unaware. I believe we are in an unconscious state, like sleep. Just like the scriptures refers to death. Our spirit or breath of life is out of our body, so it is unconscious. Our bodies have decayed into the earth. We become alive or awake again when God reunites or spirit with our body. I look at the book of Genesis when God created man and made him alive. Look at what happens, the order or steps which is given. God makes man from the earth..is man alive at that point..no. God then breathes into man the breath of life or gives him spirit and then man becomes alive or it says..he became a living SOUL. Soul is what man became. Was the spirit conscious before it entered the body God made? The scripture doesn`t imply that it was. So it seems to me the opposite happens at death. The spirit goes back to God. It is unconscious without the body just like it was before it entered the body. The body goes back to the earth.
We never die because God will keep our spirit or breath of life to reunite it with our body at the resurrection. I suppose God could destroy the spirit. He could never allow the spirit to re-enter our body in which case it would be like death. No hope of ever becoming alive again. It would just cease to exist. But we never truly die because God will reunite our spirit and body.Death is final..end period. But, God promises it is not the end, so it is truly like sleep. It is as he said, we never die.When we are sleeping we lay unconscious until we arise in the morning. When we physically die, we lay unconscious until God awakens us in the morning.
Like you, this is my opinion based on how I read ALL of scripture...not just a verse here and a verse there. I look at what the OT says about death. I look at Genesis. I look at what Jesus said. I try to harmonize ALL of it. I`m not dogmatic about it and I have an open mind about it but this is what I believe.

[spm62]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

But the spirit of the person is in the tender arms of the father in heaven.
There although we are away from our bodies we are yet "at home" with the Lord...

This is also why when Stephen was about to die, he called out "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"...(Acts 7:59)

Had soul sleep been in poor Stephan's future he would not have had to call out such a thing as his spirit was not going anywhere...

But just as with Jesus who sent his own spirit to the Father, so we read that Stephens spirit went to heaven while his dead body went into the grave...

The error you are making is you believe the spirit to be alive outside of the body.Were you alive or conscious before you were born? Adam didn`t become aware of anything until God breathed his spirit into his body.
If we are alive with God in heaven after we die, then what is the need for a resurrection? If we are happy in Jesus`s tender arms as you say, then why all the fuss over the resurrection. Why the need to come back to earth and get our body back? No, the dead are in a state like sleep. Meaning they are unconscious but will arise again. Death isn`t the end.All throughout the bible, death is called sleep. Even Jesus called it sleep. He said Lazarus was sleeping. He didn`t say he was in paradise somewhere. He was in a state like sleep, meaning he was unconscious. But just like you arise again in the morning when you fall asleep so shall we arise again.
The dead are not in heaven looking down on us. They are dead..unconscious. They are not singing praises with God right now and watching everything on earth. They will not be aware of God, earth,or anything else until God reunites them with their bodies.
I know we like to believe they are alive with God aware of what is happening at this very moment because that somehow brings us comfort. But we have to trust the scripture and not our emotions or feelings. The one thing we can take comfort in is the fact that God holds the breath of life. Jesus has the keys to death and hades. When you die though you may be dead for 10,000 years, when you are resurrected on that glorious day, it will seems as no time had passed. Ask anyone who has been in a coma for several days or weeks. They will tell you that they were unaware of anything and can`t believe so much time had passed. It was like they were asleep. Their last conscious thought seemed liked a second ago. Eventhough, they may have been in a coma for days.

[ShanaBrown]

I agree with spm62. Pleroo. Here is a passage which speaks to this:

John 5:

24`Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
25`Verily, verily, I say to you -- There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live;
26for, as the Father hath life in himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in himself,
27and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man.
28`Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment. (YLT)



I believe that that it those who die are consciously living in heaven, then they would not be in the tombs hearing the Lord's voice. Also the verse that you gave, Pleroo, is translated in some literal translations as "not dying to the age" or "for the eon" (YLT) (CLNT). I believe that if we don't literally die, this takes away from the glory and reason for the resurrection.


1 Thess. 4

15for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,
16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, 17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

I know we like to believe they are alive with God aware of what is happening at this very moment because that somehow brings us comfort. But we have to trust the scripture and not our emotions or feelings. The one thing we can take comfort in is the fact that God holds the breath of life. Jesus has the keys to death and hades. When you die though you may be dead for 10,000 years, when you are resurrected on that glorious day, it will seems as no time had passed.

God bless.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by spm62

If we are alive with God in heaven after we die, then what is the need for a resurrection?

We are humans
Humans are designed to be spirits wrapped in flesh.
This is our hope, that this flesh we have now will be changed to a new and everlasting nature.

The only life we have to use as a guide when looking for answers is the life of Jesus.

Jesus is the only one we can turn to for answers.
What happen to Jesus is said will likewise happen to us to one day.
Jesus died, his body was taken down from the cross and laied in the tomb.
But his spirit was not unconscious,his spirit was with the Father.
This is why Paul longed to be away from the body yet at home with the Lord...Paul saw the advantage in being away from the Body....LOL

But then on the 3rd day the body of Christ was changed and rose back from the dead...same body, but changed now in its nature.

This is just the very same thing I look forward to happending to me one day.

I will die....
My body will get cremated and the ashes spread on the floor of a bar near my home.
My spirit will be at home to the Lord.
I will return with Jesus and rise up in a new everlasting body
I will ascend up and meet the lord in the air.

This is my faith...

[spm62]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

John 5:
28`Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment. (YLT)

I believe that that it those who die are consciously living in heaven, then they would not be in the tombs hearing the Lord's voice. Also the verse that you gave, Pleroo, is translated in some literal translations as "not dying to the age" or "for the eon" (YLT) (CLNT). I believe that if we don't die, this takes away from the glory and reason for the resurrection.
God bless.

Good post shana. The dead are said to be in the tombs. They are not in heaven rejoicing and praising God and watching the goings on in the earth. But there is coming an hour when they shall hear the voice of God. God will reunite the spiirit with the body and call them forth.

[spm62]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

We are humans
Humans are designed to be spirits wrapped in flesh.
This is our hope, that this flesh we have now will be changed to a new and everlasting nature.

So we need our body. Without it we are not conscious or aware. Again, go back to Genesis and read how life began. Adam was not aware of God or anything else until his spirit was united with his body. Then and only then was he alive.

The only life we have to use as a guide when looking for answers is the life of Jesus.

We can also look at how man was made and life began.

Jesus is the only one we can turn to for answers.
What happen to Jesus is said will likewise happen to us to one day.
Jesus died, his body was taken down from the cross and laied in the tomb.
But his spirit was not unconscious,his spirit was with the Father.

What verse says Jesus was conscious with the Father after he died?

This is why Paul longed to be away from the body yet at home with the Lord...Paul saw the advantage in being away from the Body....LOL

So do I. Are you happy in this body you have now? Don`t you long to be with the lord? As long as you are in this corruptable body you cannot be with the Lord. I may long to be in Hawaii. But I know as long as I am at home I can`t be in Hawaii. I can`t be in 2 places at once. So I may say, I long to leave my home and be in Hawaii. That doesn`t mean the very next second I`m in Hawaii. But I have to leave to be there at some point.

But then on the 3rd day the body of Christ was changed and rose back from the dead...same body, but changed now in its nature.

But he also had not ascended to the Father. His spirit, or his true person had not been with the Father. The church spins that and says, it means his new body had not ascended. But that is not what it says. Jesus says HE had not ascended. He didn`t go up..come back down to get a body and then go back up again.

This is just the very same thing I look forward to happending to me one day.

I will die....
My body will get cremated and the ashes spread on the floor of a bar near my home.
My spirit will be at home to the Lord.
I will return with Jesus and rise up in a new everlasting body
I will ascend up and meet the lord in the air.

This is my faith...

I understand that you believe that. But I do not think that is scriptural. I don`t believe you die, go up and are happy as can be..dancing,singing, praising God, just total bliss, then have to come back down again at some point to get another body and then go back up again. I believe you are picking certain verses and spinning them. You are totally disregarding too many scriptures. One of the keys to understanding scripture is looking at ALL...ALL of the scriptures that relate to a certain point and harmonize ALL of them. Not just pick out a few that seem to support our theology and disregard the rest.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by spm62

But he also had not ascended to the Father. .

I have tried a few times on this topic to show how this all works out.

Let me try again.

Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after he was in his body and he walked to the top of that hill, said goodbye and went up in a cloud...
He went up!
He ascended!

That is something that a spirit can not do...
Why not?
The reason is that a spirit has no body location.
It cant go up or down, it cant be thought of in physical terms like that...
A spirit has no physical form, no physical properties that can be spoken of as being up or above it, or down or underneath it.

Um,,,how else could I say this?

You cant ever ask the question, "What is behind the back of the spirit of God?" because the spirit of God is not bound by up or down,
It's not even part of that system of thinking about our world of 3 dimensions.

SO?

so , When you die, your spirit goes to be at home with the Lord...but this is not a physical place.
It's not a physical place because the Father is not a physical being...

Yes we may use words like "I go to be with the Father" but that is just so we can grasp the meanings, and should not be understood that you physically draw closer to the Father as if the Father were over here and not over there....

This is also why we will be with Jesus in heaven and that Jesus is all we will ever know of the Father, because we are going to be physical in that Glory, Jesus is physical, a physical human.
But the Father will never be physical.

so all we humans will ever know of the father is shown us in His son.


(This is my 3rd attempt to answer the "ascend" question. I worked a long time on this post and I think it is one of my best efforts so far)

[spm62]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

.

so , When you die, your spirit goes to be at home with the Lord...but this is not a physical place.
It's not a physical place because the Father is not a physical being...

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

.

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

But the spirit of the person is in the tender arms of the father in heaven.
There although we are away from our bodies we are yet "at home" with the Lord...

This is also why when Stephen was about to die, he called out "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"...(Acts 7:59)

Let me see if I follow your belief.
1) our spirits are really who we are..the real us. They are conscious and
able to rejoice, praise God, look down on earth etc.
2) our spirits (the real us) go to be with God the Father at death.
3) Then you say they go to be with the Lord. The Lord is Jesus, not the
Father so I`m confused on that part because you also state they are
with the Father. But, then you turn around say it isn`t a physical place
because the Father isn`t physical but Jesus is. So how is Jesus with
the Father if Jesus is physical like us? In other words how can our conscious
aware rejoicing spirit be both with the Father (not physical) and with Jesus (physical)
at the same time?
4) You also state that we can`t be with the Father because of the
physical thing, but yet our spirit which is conscious and aware is with
the Father. But after we get our physical bodies then we can`t be with
the Father anymore because now we are physical.

so all we humans will ever know of the father is shown us in His son.

Didn`t Jesus say, I and my Father are one? Aren`t we too going to be one with God? Right now in our physical bodies Jesus came to reveal the Father to us. But there is coming a day when we too will know just as we are known...when God becomes all in all.
Jesus is more than physical. The physical body could never withstand the pressure of rising into the earths atmosphere. The physical body cannot walk through walls. Jesus did all of those things.Your physical body will age and decay. It is corruptable. The body we will be given is more than physical. It is incorruptable. It will not age. It will be a glorified body.
The reason God created man was to have sons and daughters. Jesus was the firstfruits. When Jesus puts everything under the Fathers feet and God the Father becomes all in all, then we will know him like we are known. Everything will become one with God. But that is a long way into the future...thousands of years at least...IMO