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I don't beive for one minute salvation is about where we will end up or go , it's about being restored back to where we were before the fall .
Well yes, in a way that is what Im saying too.
The whole "Tree of Life" of Revelation points us back to the book of Genesis and of Adam and Eve. (not Adam and Steve by the way)
There is also the term "last Adam" used to talk about Jesus in the text.
But Salvation is also not just talking about a return to a life in everlasting flesh like in the garden. It is about going 'up" to be with the Lord forever.
Just as Jesus ascended, so to will you and I one day ascend on the clouds and meet the lord in the air.
So, yes, part of the story of my salvation is about where I will spend my life forever.
The Saved, and the Lost, all share the same fate...we will last forever.
the only difference is where we go.
as I believe in universalism and that noone is everlastingly lost, I agree that finally all will last forever. However I don't believe that men have immortal souls or spirits, but my intention was not to discuss about universalism, to be honest there are many, maybe to many threads on that subject (concerning that subject, I would prefer qualitiy over quantity) I was just interested how people defend the immortality of the soul or the immortal doom of the wicked scripturally.
I can see no scriptural evidence that men have inherent immortality or will be made immortal as long as they are wicked, most of these claims are rather philosophical speculation and reasoning then what Scripture explicitly says.
you say, men will live literally forever either in heaven or hell, but Scripture says the wages of sin is death, how can that be reconciled?
living forever in hell can be hardly called death, can't it?
you say, men will live literally forever either in heaven or hell, but Scripture says the wages of sin is death, how can that be reconciled?
What is the 2nd death?
My point in asking is that many things seem crazy at first glance...like the idea that we must be born-again....Do we really enter back into that same mother we came out of to be Born Again?
or is it that terms like being 'born" and "death" have to be understood in the correct context or else they are a bit silly?
Originally Posted by svenM you say, men will live literally forever either in heaven or hell, but Scripture says the wages of sin is death, how can that be reconciled?
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What is the 2nd death?
How does this correspond with this?
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The Lost also rise up out of the grave in everlasting bodies.
I liked your thoughts Ironmaw. Though I don't believe we're actively conscious upon death, until the resurrection, I like the thought of our inate being resting in God, sleeping perhaps. I think that I had that feeling all along, just never expressed it quite so well.
I believe that man is not YET in the image of God. I believe the actual tense of the beginning of man's creation is that God IS creating man. Only Christ has been finished and is the ultimate pattern of what man is to BECOME. There are just too many contrasts between Adam and Christ and if one says Adam was like God before he "fell", in what way? He certainly was not like God physically because God is not a man. He was certainly not like God spiritually because he did not know good from evil. He was as an infant, a babe, in many ways we still are. We are still the clay in the potter's hand. WHEN we become like Christ, THEN we will be adopted by God. Adoption back in the days of Christ did not really mean when you took someone else's baby or child, or man to be your own. This did happen of course. But mainly it described the process of a male child being tutored and taught the business of the father, and when he was mature enough, by the Father's decision. he was adopted as fit to handle the Father's business and complete transactins in His name, just as if he were the father. That is what was meant by the adoption of sons. Few certainly attain near to that status in this lifetime. Sorry, this is probably going away from the OP, as I usually do.
I've mentioned before and still believe that the beginning verses of the Bible are prophetic in aspect....looking forward to how it will be WHEN God is finished with us. Then starting in Chapter 2, He begins the narration of how HE IS making all that happen. Though we know much about earth, sciece, biology, anatomy, and can exert a great deal of control over animals, I don't see where we are masters by any means yet.
I never saw how much the two accounts of creation differed with each other until I read the following article. I think it explains much.
Don't let the spiritword scare ya. He is not a spiritist.
I would not be unhappy at all to find out that our spirits somehow go to be with the Lord at our death. That is one thing I would be glad to hear someone say, "I told you so", lol. But it doens't make sense. Paul is constantly saying how death is an enemy. How could it be an enemy if we go to be with God/Jesus? Why would the resurrection be our hope and without it our faith is in vain and we are dead in our sins, if that is what happens? Tho, I believe there will not appear to be any time lapse between the time we close our eyes in death and awaken in the resurrection, that is still different than having some awareness WHILE life continues in the same manner on earth until that time when Christ returns.
Good topic, Sven. Good to view the different points of view also. Always nice to have an avenue to share what I believe. And I don't feel like anyone is a heretic if they don't agree with me either!!
Good post scarlet. Thanks for the link..I find it very interesting.
It goes like this...
a human is a soul wrapped in flesh.
At the death of the human, the flesh is placed in the grave where it rots to dust, and the soul of the Christian goes back to the Lord who gave it.
At the return of Christ the Lord returns with the Christian souls who have died and these souls rise up out of the grave in new everlasting bodies.
The Lost also rise up out of the grave in everlasting bodies.
You said souls are with the Lord and the flesh is what is in the earth or grave. Then you say the souls are raised out of the graves? How can souls rise up out of the grave, if they are not in the grave?
I believe the soul to be who we are. God breathed into man the breath of life(spirit) and man BECAME a living soul. He didn`t breath the soul into the man. The soul is what the man became. It is this breath of life or spirit that returns to God at death, not the soul. They are not the same.
Also you say, only the the soul(not the right word)of the chrsitian goes back to God. I believe all breath of life goes back to God. Where else would the breath of life or spirit go to? It has to go back to whence it came. Just like ALL flesh goes back to where it came. ALL spirit comes forth from God. So it will return to God. Then at the resurrections God will reunite the breath of life with the body.
You said souls are with the Lord and the flesh is what is in the earth or grave. Then you say the souls are raised out of the graves? How can souls rise up out of the grave, if they are not in the grave?
The spirit of a person is away from the body and at home with the Lord when we die.
This is the very same thing that happened to Jesus when he sent his spirit to the Father and died on the cross.
For 3 days the spirit of Christ was at home with the Lord, but away from his body.
Then on the 3rd day the dead body of flesh and blood was changed into a everlasting body of flesh and bone.
It was raised from the dead.
Now Jesus is wrapped in this body of everlasting flesh and bone and will be like this forever, just as we will be like him forever.
Remember the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is our only guide when answering this question.
. God breathed into man the breath of life(spirit) and man BECAME a living soul. .
yes, we become a living animal, a creature of this world.
God wraps the spirit in the body of flesh and blood.
At that point we go from just being a spirit alone to being a true living (Blood, heart, eyes, nose mouth heartbeat) spirit.
What humans are is a spirit wrapped in flesh.
Right now the body that wraps our spirit is a body of flesh and blood.
The context of the term "Flesh and blood" means that this body rots and while it does have life in it, it yet will die and turn to dust.
The body our spirits get wrapped in in the resurrection is an everlasting body of flesh and bone...The context here teaches us that this is a new type of body that does not rot or get old or die.
The spirit of a person is away from the body and at home with the Lord when we die.
This is the very same thing that happened to Jesus when he sent his spirit to the Father and died on the cross.
For 3 days the spirit of Christ was at home with the Lord, but away from his body.
Then on the 3rd day the dead body of flesh and blood was changed into a everlasting body of flesh and bone.
It was raised from the dead.
Now Jesus is wrapped in this body of everlasting flesh and bone and will be like this forever, just as we will be like him forever.
Remember the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is our only guide when answering this question.
Jesus had not yet ascended to the father until he resurrected according to scripture.
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How can souls rise up out of the grave, if they are not in the grave?
