immortal soul and the doctrine everlasting torment (scripture, sin, Jesus Christ)
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while I appreciate to see people rejecting such doctrine whether in favor for annihilationism or universal reconciliation I actually expected people to answer who believe in everlasting torment.
Many are the people who speak about "hell" or everlasting torment, with no knowledge of the proper scriptural terms (sheol, gehenna), however their scriptural support for such doctrine is weak in my opinion.
It's not so that I want to point with fingers on them and condemn them, but if anyone endorses such doctrine, he should at least have overwhelming scriptural evidence, or at least any evidence.
(that a certain word, that changed it's meaning over centuries is contained in the KJV, or any other translation is no evidence at all)
It goes like this...
a human is a soul wrapped in flesh.
At the death of the human, the flesh is placed in the grave where it rots to dust, and the soul of the Christian goes back to the Lord who gave it.
At the return of Christ the Lord returns with the Christian souls who have died and these souls rise up out of the grave in new everlasting bodies.
The Lost also rise up out of the grave in everlasting bodies.
There is a great judgement, where everyone learns their everlasting fate.
The Lost are tossed into Hell's ever-burning flame, (Or whatever you wish to call it)
The Saved rise up and meet the Lord in the air and for the first time enter the Kingdom in real human bodies of flesh and bone. (Just as Jesus did)
Thats it....
Nothing new happens to the Lost,
The Saved never have to worry again that things might change as to where they live.
can you give me verses for your claims concerning the soul; and where does the bible say the lost rise with immortal bodies?
why did David not ascend to heaven? - that doesn't sound like your doctrine:
Acts 2:25-35
For David saith concerning him: I foresaw the Lord before my face: because he is at my right hand, that I may not be moved. For this my heart hath been glad, and my tongue hath rejoiced: moreover my flesh also shall rest in hope. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life: thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Ye men, brethren, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David: that he died and was buried; and his sepulchre is with us to this present say. Whereas therefore he was a prophet and knew that God hath sworn to him with an oath, that of the fruit of his loins one should sit upon his throne. Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was he left in hell: neither did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised again, whereof all we are witnesses. Being exalted therefore by the right hand of God and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this which you see and hear. For David ascended not into heaven; but he himself said: The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy enemies thy footstool.
why did David not ascend to heaven? - that doesn't sound like your doctrine:
None except for Jesus has "ascended" into heaven in a body of flesh and bone.
When you die your spirit goes to be with the Lord, you are away from the body, but this is not to be considered ascending to heaven.
Think of the story of Christ and his death, (As his is the only life we can use a a guide in answering this question)
Jesus was on the cross and he sent his spirit to be with the Father and he died.
The dead body of Jesus was put into the grave.
On the 3rd day, the flesh and blood body of Jesus was changed and became an everlasting body of flesh and bone.
In this type of body Jesus went up into the air and entered heaven for the very first time... This is the moment he "ascended into heaven"
So this then is why Jesus can teach us that David has not yet ascended into heaven
But one day David will...
so you believe in deathsleep at least until the ressurection? - but why do you suppose the lost rise immortal?
I believe that right now the dead watch us...they are very much awake and feel the arms of God around them.
The human spirit that God wrapped in flesh is what goes to be with God at our deaths.
Then at the return of Christ, Jesus comes to the earth with all that have been with the Lord , and all the spirits of us all are risen up out of the graves in everlasting bodies of flesh and bone.
The Lost are judged and tossed into hells everlasting fire, (or whatever you wish to call it)
And the Saved ascend into heaven to be with the lord forever.
Although for a short time, we all will be away from our bodies, we clearly were never designed to remain long in that state.
We are humans, we are designed to be spirits wrapped in flesh.
That is who we are designed to be.
Right now we are all humans, that are actually spirits wrapped in a body of flesh and blood.
(this is what we all are)
The context of the term "Flesh and blood' is that this type of flesh rots,
it gets sick,
it gets old,
it passes away and turns to dust.
The context of the term "Flesh and bone" is an everlasting body that will never rot,
will not change
and will be with us forever.
This type of everlasting body is very handy if you get to enter into heaven and spend forever with the lord.
Not so handy if you get tossed into the everlasting burning fires of hell.
But this is who we are designed to be...we are spirits wrapped in flesh.
In the midst of its street and of the river, from here and from there, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations.
this is written about the new earth, why would immortal men need a tree for healing? and if even the people that will have entrance to the holy city are obviously not immortal or eternal, why should then the wicked be made immortal and eternal (as long as they are wicked)? where does the bible say so?
In the midst of its street and of the river, from here and from there, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations.
ahh...the book of Revelation...
While interesting, I dont attempt to teach people what the many symbols in that book are to be understood to be talking about.
I believe the Bible student has to be careful to not allow the things they read in that book to overshadow the more clear teachings found in other parts of the bible...
This is because Symbols are tricky to unlock, and you can screw up one little understanding of a symbol and it can cause you to mess up a whole bunch of other clear bible teachings,
An example would be the term "The seal of god on their foreheads"
Now this seal, this seal that all Christians are talked about having...
Do I have it on me right now?
Is it hard to see?
Could I accidentally wash it off.
To me, things talked about in the book of revelation are really heavy into the use of symbols.
Everything means something else, and you cant just take the text at only face value or else you end up thinking you are not a good Christian just because you cant find your "God Stamp" on your forehead in the mirror.
The tree of life...is it a real tree?
The fruit of the tree of life,,,,do they look like an apple?
How about the fruit of the Christian's walk with God, does it look like an apple?
The "leaves of the tree of Life" idea is sorta hinting back to the Genesis story.
Well if you go back to genesis you find another story writen with a heavy use of symbols...(Think the "He will crush his head" is only talking about one little garden snake?)
So the Book of revelation is rich with symbols, and it lists the "tree of life" and that hearkens back to the book of genesis and that book is also filled with symbols.
So ...well...thats as far as I can go.
I would never try to use a symbol in the Book of rev to start a whole new teaching around because symbols are easy to get mixed up over.
So rather I try to stick to more clear verses to support my views, and just use the many bible symbols to help color-in them.
why should then the wicked be made immortal and eternal (as long as they are wicked)? ?
well, there are two different points of view to always keep in mind here.
The human , limited point of view we all share
and God's point of view where he knows everything that will be in the future.
We humans dont know the future.
We dont have a clue who will be saved, we dont have a clue who will be lost.
every baby born in our eyes has the same chance one way or the other to us, cuz we cant predict how things will go for the person as they grow up.
However god knows the end of us all before we were born.
The Saved, and the Lost, all share the same fate...we will last forever.
the only difference is where we go.
So the human spirit that each of us has, is made by god, and will always be around.
The human spirit is not limited in the way all of the other parts of creation are limited.
However the human body we all are born with is very much a limited thing.
The Lord has a design for us in mind however.
That humans will be everlasting spirits wrapped in everlasting flesh.
that is who we are designed to be forever.
That is what we will all become one day.
Everlasting spirits wrapped in everlasting flesh.
That is what it will mean to be 'human"
That is also the reason to really buckle down and learn where you will end up at the Resurrection too.
Because "forever" can seem like a mighty long time to a person burning in hells fire.
The Saved, and the Lost, all share the same fate...we will last forever.
the only difference is where we go.
I don't beive for one minute salvation is about where we will end up or go , it's about being restored back to where we were before the fall or something even more glorious.
I John 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
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