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Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther. The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today's canon. This was one of the Church's earliest decisions on a canon. Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today's canon. The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus' Decree. Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon. The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.
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Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther. The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today's canon. This was one of the Church's earliest decisions on a canon. Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today's canon. The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus' Decree. Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon. The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.
The mater of Cannon was settled 1800 years ago. 400 years ago Luther decided to change it to match his lunatict interpretations.
A lot of this stuff stems from the Protestant misunderstanding of covenant.
For Luther and for practically all of Bible Christianity and Protestantism, God is a judge, and the covenant is a courtroom scene whereby all of us are guilty criminals.
But since Christ took our punishment, we get his righteousness, and he gets our sins, so we get
off scot-free; we're justified.
For Luther, in other words, salvation is a legal exchange, but for Paul in Romans, for Paul in Galatians, salvation is that, but it's much more than that. It isn't just a legal exchange because the covenant doesn't point to a Roman courtroom so much as to a Hebrew family room.
God is not just simply a judge; God is a father, and his judgments are fatherly. Christ is not just somebody who represents an innocent victim who takes our rap, our penalty; He is the firstborn among many brethren. He is our oldest brother in the family, and he sees us as runaways, as prodigals, as rebels who are cut off from the life of God's family. And by the new covenant Christ doesn't just exchange in a legal sense; Christ gives us His own sonship so that we really become children of God.
Nowhere did the Holy Spirit ever inspire the writers of Scripture to say we're saved by faith alone. Paul teaches we're saved by faith, but in Galatians he says we're saved by faith working in love.
So if God = Father, and covenant = family then by honoring Mary we are honoring our (spiritiual) mother. The feast days and days of observance are like birthdays.
Many Protestants are brainwashed in the same way as Muslims -- with the same false rumours potrayed as facts.
One of the most important commands on this subject is the command to honor one’s parents: "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you" (Ex. 20:12). God considered this command so important that he repeated it multiple times in the Bible (for example, Lev. 19:3, Deut. 5:16, Matt. 15:4, Luke 18:20, and Eph. 6:2–3). It was also important to give honor to one’s elders in general: "You shall rise up before the hoary head, and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord" (Lev. 19:32). It was also important to specially honor religious leaders: "Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron [the high priest], to give him dignity and honor" (Ex. 28:2).
The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7). He also stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed" (1 Tim. 6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: "Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor" (1 Pet. 2:17).
The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: "Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: "He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward" (Matt. 10:41).
So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.
1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?
Even if the Catholic Church could prove that it alone is the sole deliverer of the Scriptures to man today, it still remains that the Catholic Church is not following the Bible and is contrary to the Bible.
The Bible says precisely the opposite of all these statements and was interpreted that way for 1500 years before Luther. You belong to one of the 33 thousand apostate denominations.
Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.
This compilation corresponds to the Jewish and Protestant canon, with the exception of the Book of Esther. Melito's canon did NOT include the Deutero-canonical books.
Protocanonical pertains to the first canon, or that which contains the authorized collections of the books of scriptures, and it EXCLUDES the Apocrypha/Deuteron-canonical. In other words, the Proto-canonical and Deutero-canonical books were two separate Old Testaments books.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today's canon. This was one of the Church's earliest decisions on a canon. Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today's canon. The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus' Decree. Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon. The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.
So do you know what happened between 170AD and 360AD?
The early Church fathers that you mention here INCLUDED the Apocrypha books, which is what you refer to here as “today’s canon” – ie. the Roman Catholic Church canon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
The mater of Cannon was settled 1800 years ago. 400 years ago Luther decided to change it to match his lunatict interpretations.
Luther subsequently excluded what the Roman Catholic Church included – for the same reason that the Apocrypha/Deutero-canonical was excluded in the first place, and for the fact that the RC Church was abusing the practice of indulgences.
Now he’s a pretty smart lunatic I would say, sure if God used a donkey, He could also use a lunatic !!! ……
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
A lot of this stuff stems from the Protestant misunderstanding of covenant. For Luther and for practically all of Bible Christianity and Protestantism, God is a judge, and the covenant is a courtroom scene whereby all of us are guilty criminals.
Where on earth did you get this warped idea from, man?
All Christians view God as the God of Love, if not, the whole accomplishments of Christ crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection are in vain !
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
But since Christ took our punishment, we get his righteousness, and he gets our sins, so we get off scot-free; we're justified.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
For Luther, in other words, salvation is a legal exchange, but for Paul in Romans, for Paul in Galatians, salvation is that, but it's much more than that. It isn't just a legal exchange because the covenant doesn't point to a Roman courtroom so much as to a Hebrew family room.
God is not just simply a judge; God is a father, and his judgments are fatherly. Christ is not just somebody who represents an innocent victim who takes our rap, our penalty; He is the firstborn among many brethren. He is our oldest brother in the family, and he sees us as runaways, as prodigals, as rebels who are cut off from the life of God's family. And by the new covenant Christ doesn't just exchange in a legal sense; Christ gives us His own sonship so that we really become children of God.
Sorry, but where are you going with this? What do you mean “For Luther salvation is a legal exchange” ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
Nowhere did the Holy Spirit ever inspire the writers of Scripture to say we're saved by faith alone. Paul teaches we're saved by faith, but in Galatians he says we're saved by faith working in love.
I know the answer to this, but you know what, perhaps we should take it up in another thread, or perhaps it was already discussed before. I don’t come to this forum often, so I’m not sure.
Meanwhile, perhaps you can check with your “infallible” pope why he is finally agreeing with Luther on Sola Fide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
So if God = Father, and covenant = family then by honoring Mary we are honoring our (spiritiual) mother. The feast days and days of observance are like birthdays.
Many Protestants are brainwashed in the same way as Muslims -- with the same false rumours potrayed as facts.
One of the most important commands on this subject is the command to honor one’s parents: "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you" (Ex. 20:12). God considered this command so important that he repeated it multiple times in the Bible (for example, Lev. 19:3, Deut. 5:16, Matt. 15:4, Luke 18:20, and Eph. 6:2–3). It was also important to give honor to one’s elders in general: "You shall rise up before the hoary head, and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord" (Lev. 19:32). It was also important to specially honor religious leaders: "Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron [the high priest], to give him dignity and honor" (Ex. 28:2).
The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7). He also stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed" (1 Tim. 6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: "Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor" (1 Pet. 2:17).
The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: "Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: "He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward" (Matt. 10:41).
So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.
Hallelujah, we finally agree on something. I absolutely agree with everything you said here!
But you know, there’s a whole world of difference between simple honoring and “venerating, praying to and even worshipping” . Nowhere in the bible is there mention of having to elevate Mary or dead saints to such a lofty level. On the contrary Jesus has these warnings to give :-
Matthew 10:37
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
Luke 14:26
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
Even if you don’t worship Mary in your country, I know that in some parts of countries like India and Philippines, Catholic go to extreme levels of worshipping Mary like a god. Actually even in my own Asian country many Catholics worship Mary by bowing down to her. This is blatant violation of the 1st and 2nd Commandments :-
"You shall have no other gods before me.”
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billb7581
The Bible says precisely the opposite of all these statements and was interpreted that way for 1500 years before Luther. You belong to one of the 33 thousand apostate denominations.
Finally you are admitting that the RC Church has been practicing precisely the opposite of what the bible says…. Well then, it must be you that belong to one of the 242 “one true church” apostate denomination.
I have answered every one of these issues one at a time over many threads. I don't have the time or energy to answer these one at a time. The Holy Spirit works on the edges and works inward. It doesn't start working out from the middle. You folks are just not ready to understand.
I deem a person ready when they start asking the right questions. Then I give them information as they can ask for it. That's how the Holy Spirit works. You folks are saturated with your truth with no more space for anything else. At least you have some of the truth.
Finally you are admitting that the RC Church has been practicing precisely the opposite of what the bible says…. Well then, it must be you that belong to one of the 242 “one true church” apostate denomination.
Where does this 242 come from? because it's a load of nonsense.
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