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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj
I have. Just search the various threads. Just admit that there's nothing I could possibly say or back up Catholic beliefs with scripture that would make you believe that Catholics got it right. I have done it before. I quote some scripture and you reply that's not what it means. Been there, done that. So what's the point. You are free to believe what you want. Straw and all.
In his article, "The Church and the Gospel of Matthew," Gerhardt Meier says on pages 58 through 60, "Nowadays, a broad consensus has emerged which, in accordance with the words of the text applies the promise to Peter as a person." This is a Protestant speaking now. "On this point liberal and conservative theologians agree," and he names several Protestant theologians from the liberal to the conservative side. "Matthew 16:18 ought not to be interpreted as a local church. The church in Matthew 16:18 is the universal entity, namely the people of God. There is an increasing consensus now that this verse concerning the power of the keys is talking about the authority to teach and to discipline, including even to absolve sins." Professor Gerhardt Meier is a Protestant with no interest in supporting the Catholic claim but, as an honest scholar, admits that Peter is the one that Jesus is giving His power to. "Peter is the rock and the keys signify, not only disciplinary power to teach, but even to absolve sins. With all due respect to the Protestant Reformers, we must admit that the promise in Matthew 16-18 is directed to Peter and not to a Peter-like faith. As Evangelical theologians, especially, we ought to look at ourselves dispassionately and acknowledge that we often tend unjustifiably toward an individualistic conception of faith. To recognize the authenticity of Matthew 16:17 and following demands that we develop a Biblically based ecclesiology or doctrine of the church."
Quote:
In his article, "The Church and the Gospel of Matthew," Gerhardt Meier says on pages 58 through 60, "Nowadays, a broad consensus has emerged which, in accordance with the words of the text applies the promise to Peter as a person." This is a Protestant speaking now. "On this point liberal and conservative theologians agree," and he names several Protestant theologians from the liberal to the conservative side. "Matthew 16:18 ought not to be interpreted as a local church. The church in Matthew 16:18 is the universal entity, namely the people of God. There is an increasing consensus now that this verse concerning the power of the keys is talking about the authority to teach and to discipline, including even to absolve sins." Professor Gerhardt Meier is a Protestant with no interest in supporting the Catholic claim but, as an honest scholar, admits that Peter is the one that Jesus is giving His power to. "Peter is the rock and the keys signify, not only disciplinary power to teach, but even to absolve sins. With all due respect to the Protestant Reformers, we must admit that the promise in Matthew 16-18 is directed to Peter and not to a Peter-like faith. As Evangelical theologians, especially, we ought to look at ourselves dispassionately and acknowledge that we often tend unjustifiably toward an individualistic conception of faith. To recognize the authenticity of Matthew 16:17 and following demands that we develop a Biblically based ecclesiology or doctrine of the church."
First and foremost, who on earth is Gerhardt Meier? .. All I get from the internet is some gay and porn links …….
Secondly, do you know that it’s not just Peter, but all of Jesus’ disciples and in today’s context, any reliable and qualified Christian has the disciplinary power to teach. Did Gerhardt Meier knew what he was talking about? He’s not making any extraordinary statement here that is anything special or unheard of. Every biblically-grounded Christian already knows that !!
And finally, I only disagree with his last claim. On what basis did the writer arrive at the conclusion that Peter had disciplinary power to “absolve sins” ? Please elaborate and back up with scriptures.
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Last edited by ShalomPeace; 07-16-2009 at 06:14 AM..
What did Our Lord mean when He told Peter that "whatever" he bound or loosed on earth would be bound and loosed in Heaven? If it doesn't mean what's simply written in Scripture, then what else can it mean?
First and foremost, who on earth is Gerhardt Meier? .. All I get from the internet is some gay and porn links …….
Secondly, do you know that it’s not just Peter, but all of Jesus’ disciples and in today’s context, any reliable and qualified Christian has the disciplinary power to teach. Did Gerhardt Meier knew what he was talking about? He’s not making any extraordinary statement here that is anything special or unheard of. Every biblically-grounded Christian already knows that !!
And finally, I only disagree with his last claim. On what basis did the writer arrive at the conclusion that Peter had disciplinary power to “absolve sins” ? Please elaborate and back up with scriptures.
.
Jesus clearly is only talking to Peter when it comes to the Keys. That was intrepretation of the early Church and anything contrary is not orthodox. I know this orthodox interpretation really casts some doubt on the validity of any of the protestant churches, but Peter receiving the keys is not only biblical, but it was understood that way for 1500 years. Only the folks of the reformation, out of necessity of self-preservation, reinterpreted that passage.
[Matthew 16:13-19] 13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter (rock), and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
You want scripture on Catholic beliefs of absolving sins. Again, it has to do with Authority given by Jesus himself. This time Jesus did give it to all His disciples. The Authority given was one of the first things out of Jesus's mouth when he came back to the disciples at Pentecost:
[John 20:19-23] 19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
Jesus so clearly gives His new Apostles "disciplinary power" or what's better known as "Authority", to forgive and retain sins.
Keep in mind a priest, and the case above, the disciples/Apostles, only act as God's tool, conduit, or vessel. Only God can forgive sins. That is what the Church has always believed. The verse above is the scriptural source for the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Penance. (Confession). Since Jesus said those words at the VERY beginning of the His Church, confession has been a part of His Church since the beginning, also.
Evangelical Protestant German scholar, GerhardtMeier, who wrote a famous book that conservative Protestants frequently refer to, "The End of the Historical Critical Method". In his article, "The Church and the Gospel of Matthew," GerhardtMeier says on pages 58 through 60, "Nowadays, a broad consensus has emerged which, in accordance with the words of the text applies the promise to Peter as a person." This is a Protestant speaking now. "On this point liberal and conservative theologians agree," and he names several Protestant theologians from the liberal to the conservative side. "Matthew 16:18 ought not to be interpreted as a local church. The church in Matthew 16:18 is the universal entity, namely the people of God. There is an increasing consensus now that this verse concerning the power of the keys is talking about the authority to teach and to discipline, including even to absolve sins." Professor GerhardtMeier is a Protestant with no interest in supporting the Catholic claim but, as an honest scholar, admits that Peter is the one that Jesus is giving His power to. "Peter is the rock and the keys signify, not only disciplinary power to teach, but even to absolve sins. With all due respect to the Reformers, we must admit that the promise in Matthew 16-18 is directed to Peter and not to a Peter-like faith. As Evangelical theologians, especially, we ought to look at ourselves dispassionately and acknowledge that we often tend unjustifiably toward an individualistic conception of faith. To recognize the authenticity of Matthew 16:17 and following demands that we develop a Biblically based ecclesiology or doctrine of the church."
The authority to remit sins was not just given to Peter, but to the apostles:
Then said Jesus to THEM again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so I send YOU. And when he had said this, he breathed on THEM, and saith unto THEM, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins YE REMIT, they are REMITTED unto them; and whose sins ye RETAIN, they are RETAINED (John 20:21-23)
We later see Paul operating in this capacity with the Corinthian Church:
To whom ye FORGIVE ANY THING, I FORGIVE also: for if I FORGIVE any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes FORGIVE I IT IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST (2 Cor.2:10)
With all due respect billb, this was one of the most detestable doctrines of the Roman Church that the Reformers had to oppose. The teaching that there is no forgiveness outside of the Roman Church through the authority of priests and the papacy, was used to put fear and terror in the hearts of many. We will never know how many people were controlled through fear by this docrine, and the Reformers opposed it, and the doctrine of apostolic succession and Peter's chair.
The authority to remit sins was not just given to Peter, but to the apostles:
Then said Jesus to THEM again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so I send YOU. And when he had said this, he breathed on THEM, and saith unto THEM, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins YE REMIT, they are REMITTED unto them; and whose sins ye RETAIN, they are RETAINED (John 20:21-23)
We later see Paul operating in this capacity with the Corinthian Church:
To whom ye FORGIVE ANY THING, I FORGIVE also: for if I FORGIVE any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes FORGIVE I IT IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST (2 Cor.2:10)
With all due respect billb, this was one of the most detestable doctrines of the Roman Church that the Reformers had to oppose. The teaching that there is no forgiveness outside of the Roman Church through the authority of priests and the papacy, was used to put fear and terror in the hearts of many. We will never know how many people were controlled through fear by this docrine, and the Reformers opposed it, and the doctrine of apostolic succession and Peter's chair.
I know you addressed this to bilb, but the Catholic Church doesn't claim Peter was only given the authority to forgive sins. I clearly state it above that Jesus talked to all the disciples at Pentecost when He uttered the John 20:23 words. But as usual, straw is the content of choice.
Detestable for 1976 years. Jesus authorized detestable.That's the Catholics.
the Reformers opposed it, and the doctrine of apostolic succession and Peter's chair.
The Reformer, Martin Luther, said this:
Why are you searching heavenward in search of my keys? Do you not understand, Jesus said, 'I gave them to Peter. They are indeed the keys of heaven, but they are not found in heaven for I left them on earth. Peter's mouth is my mouth, his tongue is my key case, his keys are my keys. They are an office. They are a power, a command given by God through Christ to all of Christendom for the retaining and remitting of the sins of men. (Martin Luther 1530 - after he left the Church)
W. F. Albright, one of the best known Protestant theologians of this century, in his Anchor Bible Commentary, says:
Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church....To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence.
When Jesus says "whatever you bind" to Peter in Mat 16:18, the Greek text used for "you" is singular. In Mat 18:18 the Greek text, the word for "you" in "whatever you bind" is plural. These two juxtaposed but similar phrases lay out the early structure of the Church with Peter as the Pope and the other apostles as priests.
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