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I don't disput that. People have NDEs - I agree. But are all of the things they experience real or in the mind? What is the proof, other than people seeing shoes on rooftops? What is the proof of the Hell NDEs?
lego, if people see things or hear conversations they could not otherwise have identified when conscious, then that is proof enough for scientists. Why is it you still attribute these phenomenon to inventions of the mind. That's some type of a logic oxymoron. Either they're real, or they're the products of the mind. They can't be both.
They are not in torment before they are taken from death to be cast into the lake of fire - because the lake of fire is where they are (supposedly) tormented forever (which is eternal ) and ever, oops!! why if the one forever is eternal do they put another one there?
meerkat, I think some of the things being debated here are things God has not revealed the answer to, otherwise the HS would reveal the answers to us and we wouldn't be having such "hell"acious discussions.
meerkat, I think some of the things being debated here are things God has not revealed the answer to, otherwise the HS would reveal the answers to us and we wouldn't be having such "hell"acious discussions.
Hmm,
What I believe is that all truth has been revealed, but we humans are all in varying stages of having blind eyes and deaf ears, and it is about our eyes and ears being opened to the truth.
When I started searching 18 months ago I did not know a lot of the things I know now, I had to search - the bible did not change it was my understanding that changed - I still realise that there is a lot of truth in the bible that I have not grasped - it is there, but my eyes do not see it.
That is what the Holy Spirit is for, when you search and question, it is then revealed, if we don't search - we don't find.
lego, if people see things or hear conversations they could not otherwise have identified when conscious, then that is proof enough for scientists. Why is it you still attribute these phenomenon to inventions of the mind. That's some type of a logic oxymoron. Either they're real, or they're the products of the mind. They can't be both.
Because I have no first hand experience with them.
Even the shoe story, I have no idea if it is real or not.
But the main reason I don't believe the Hell NDEs is because I firmly believe the bible does not teach eternal torture in literal fire.
Because I have no first hand experience with them.
Even the shoe story, I have no idea if it is real or not.
But the main reason I don't believe the Hell NDEs is because I firmly believe the bible does not teach eternal torture in literal fire.
Take it or leave it.
Is it....stick with me on this for just a moment....is it possible you're letting your bias about UR block an open mind about the possibility that hell NDE's are not a figment of a thousand or so people's overactive imagination? I'm on the fence about ET and UR, but I try to see past my beliefs and focus strictly on the validity of NDE's. But the accounts available on the web have real names of real people, hospitals, doctors, nurses and are easily verified. Of course, if you want to just blot the matter out and say, "It's impossible. Why? Because I don't believe in it," that, of course, is your perogative.
Why do they call them NEAR death experiences and not actual death experiences? Why do some people have no experience at all? Why do people have different experiences depending on what religion they are a part of? The mind is a powerful thing. Who knows what happens inside the brain when it is deprived of oxygen as far the electrical impulses go? Of course some people will believe anything if someone puts it in book form and makes it sound credible. Just believe the bible.
"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).
...for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Eccl 9:10
Psalm 115 17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 146 4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1 cor 11:30
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Is it....stick with me on this for just a moment....is it possible you're letting your bias about UR block an open mind about the possibility that hell NDE's are not a figment of a thousand or so people's overactive imagination? I'm on the fence about ET and UR, but I try to see past my beliefs and focus strictly on the validity of NDE's. But the accounts available on the web have real names of real people, hospitals, doctors, nurses and are easily verified. Of course, if you want to just blot the matter out and say, "It's impossible. Why? Because I don't believe in it," that, of course, is your perogative.
I guess I would have to investigate it more. How can one verify an NDE? It just comes down to a story or personal account.
I haven't read that many accounts of hell NDEs, so I would have to read alot of them to have a more informed opinion. Just what are these NDEs they are experiencing? For example are they just seeing some flames and a tunnel to light, and then calling that "hell"? Or are they actually talking to dead people that tell them, "don't come here this is hell!"? Or are they actually seeing demons with pitchforks (ala Mary Baxter)?
But that doesn't change my view of scripture. I don't believe scripture teaches a literal eternal hell of fire. If "hell" NDEs are true, how is it that "God is the savior of all men", as sciprture teaches? So either hell NDEs are true and scripture is wrong, or vice versa. They both can't be true. So I'm sticking with scripture at the moment. Perhaps you are more willing to throw scripture out the window.
Now I did believe in eternal torment for 30 years, then I actually studied scripture and realized it didn't teach eternal torment (about 1.5 years ago). But during those 30 years I would have said YES hell NDEs are proof of hell.
In your first question above, effectively what you are saying to me is: Throw scripture away and believe in hell because some people say they saw hell in an NDE. I just can't do that right now. Its like atheists who say there is no evidence that Jesus existed... they might ask "is it possible you're letting your bias about Jesus block an open mind about the possibility that Jesus is a figment of your imagination?"
Do you see what I mean? At a certain point we must have faith and choose what we believe. I believe the scriptures, and I don't believe they teach eternal torment, therefore there must be some other explanation for "Hell" NDEs. And the most obvious explanation for me is they are part of the deception that Satan pulls over the whole world - whether they are dreams, or delusions, or made up stories, or whatever.
Is it....stick with me on this for just a moment....is it possible you're letting your bias about UR block an open mind about the possibility that hell NDE's are not a figment of a thousand or so people's overactive imagination? I'm on the fence about ET and UR, but I try to see past my beliefs and focus strictly on the validity of NDE's. But the accounts available on the web have real names of real people, hospitals, doctors, nurses and are easily verified. Of course, if you want to just blot the matter out and say, "It's impossible. Why? Because I don't believe in it," that, of course, is your perogative.
It actually strengthens UR because virtually everyone in the NDEs get OUT of hell. But when there are ridiculous and unscriptural claims made then that pretty much seals the fact that they may experience it, but it's not real.
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Just believe the bible. 
