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You know, trettep, for the average guy like myself to figure this stuff out would take a PhD from Fuller. And 95% of the Christians out there are dummies like myself, no offense to the other 94.9999999%. Did God really intend to cloak these truths in so much veiled symbolism and hyperbole that His average child could not make heads or tales out of His Word (that's rhetorical, BTW--I don't expect an answer)? The average Christian person takes the Word at face value. They don't have the finesse, or better, the intellect to see that Jesus' statement about cutting off your right foot if it offends you was a veiled reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the scattering of the Jews and of the judgement of nations. Most see it as just "don't let a member of your body condemn you to hell--get rid of it if necessary." That's all they see and they act accordingly. Wouldn't you say that's problematic, to say the least?
You know, trettep, for the average guy like myself to figure this stuff out would take a PhD from Fuller.
I'm 23 years old and my main interest have been cars, to examine this things I began after talking with a Jehovah Witness, there is no need to be scholar.
maybe it's God Who gives some people knowledge and wisdom, while He does not give others, maybe God gave me knowledge cause I feared hell not for myself but for friends and even the rest of mankind, I don't know but the more knowledge, the more responsibility.
Origen said, for some it would have been better to still have believed in endless hell than to get to know the truth and corrupting themselves without the fear of eternal damnation.
You know, trettep, for the average guy like myself to figure this stuff out would take a PhD from Fuller. And 95% of the Christians out there are dummies like myself, no offense to the other 94.9999999%. Did God really intend to cloak these truths in so much veiled symbolism and hyperbole that His average child could not make heads or tales out of His Word (that's rhetorical, BTW--I don't expect an answer)? The average Christian person takes the Word at face value. They don't have the finesse, or better, the intellect to see that Jesus' statement about cutting off your right foot if it offends you was a veiled reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the scattering of the Jews and of the judgement of nations. Most see it as just "don't let a member of your body condemn you to hell--get rid of it if necessary." That's all they see and they act accordingly. Wouldn't you say that's problematic, to say the least?
Hi thrillobyte, God purposely blinds whom He will and reveals to whom He will. Actually, with a few core pieces of knowledge all the rest of this mystery goes away. Jesus said we cannot understand Heavenly things (spiritual) if we cannot understand earthly things. The reason is that He used earthly things to teach us of Heavenly things. What that does is separates the perspectives of man and those with His Spirit. Let me give you an example.
Consider this:
Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Notice that those two swords are ENOUGH. Really? Is two swords enough protection for 12 disciples and Jesus? Jesus later goes on to show that He never even meant for the swords to be used as protection. The reason that Jesus says they are enough (and He is responding to Peter showing that they have two earthly swords) is that Jesus is referring Spiritually two TWO Spiritual Swords and only using the earthly to communicate this understanding. Of course Peter didn't understand this and used a sword and got rebuked for it. But let's look at what a spiritual sword is:
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
So you see the Word of God is the Sword. But why two is enough?
Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Notice that two is ENOUGH. So this is telling us that TWO with the Word of God shall be enough to put to death. That is Two with the Spiritual Sword is enough to slay the "old man" in each of us.
Now who taught me this? - I compared spiritual things with spiritual things. Others have abused this statement about the two sword to show it as promoting war which is NOT at all what it means but this is how it the message is a mystery and revealed unto people like me that seek it via the Holy Spirit.
Even in Adam Clarke's commentary you will read on the two swords is enough verse the following:
"I must here confess that the matter about the swords appear to me very obscure. I am afraid I do not understand it, and I know of none who does. "
See he wasn't aware what it meant. It wasn't revealed to him.
The average Christian person takes the Word at face value.
Understandable, but the "Word" is not clearly stated, it is a misleading issue.
Stating "takes the word at face value" doesn't really mean a hill of beans.
ALL bibles are translations, all of them. Doesn't matter if you have a interlinear, literal, whatever. If you have a "greek" or "hebrew" source there is no place on the planet where it is not read in a translated manner, because that is the ONLY way anyone knows what it says.
Do not be fooled by people who read ancient hebrew and ancient greek as if that makes them understand it more because while they are reading it, they have simply memorized the sounds of the words and the translation of ti they "accept". There are no exceptions to this.
Now, there are all kinds of translations. The translation I primarily read from does not contain the word "hell" once. As far as I have seen there may be one instance of the word eternal that applies to God but in terms of the verses about punishment you will doubtfully find the word everlasting or eternal in them.
But it is translated from the Hebrew and Greek just like anything else and is just as much the WORD as most other sources.
So, I do see your point about PHD and education and there is a certain factor of that we as laymen are subject to. But, the thing is, I think most people understand "God is love" and perhaps it's time to see every verse in the bible through that love rather than the filter that excuses God from performing evil acts.
simple actually. Do not let men cloud your spirit with complicated messes.
You know, trettep, for the average guy like myself to figure this stuff out would take a PhD from Fuller. And 95% of the Christians out there are dummies like myself, no offense to the other 94.9999999%. Did God really intend to cloak these truths in so much veiled symbolism and hyperbole that His average child could not make heads or tales out of His Word (that's rhetorical, BTW--I don't expect an answer)? The average Christian person takes the Word at face value. They don't have the finesse, or better, the intellect to see that Jesus' statement about cutting off your right foot if it offends you was a veiled reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the scattering of the Jews and of the judgement of nations. Most see it as just "don't let a member of your body condemn you to hell--get rid of it if necessary." That's all they see and they act accordingly. Wouldn't you say that's problematic, to say the least?
Proverbs 25:2
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
The fact is that the greater mysteries of the gospel are hidden by God so that we must prove ourselves in our efforts to discover it. We are honored by his spirit to be worthy as kings to know his truth. You must search with an open heart and mind and with faith in Christ through his spirit diligently and relentlessly. It is a part of our maturation and development into king priests of the most high God. It is not for everyone to know the mysteries, but for his elect ... Some will not comprehend it even when its right in front of their faces. I believe God is beginning to awaken his Bride to many of these truths. Some people go before and God uses them to do much of the leg work that many others will benefit from in the end who did not have to work so hard for it. But it is most important for us to search our own hearts and try the doctrines of others and prove them by diligent effort and study, then we will need not be ashamed because of a lack of understanding.
Understandable, but the "Word" is not clearly stated, it is a misleading issue.
Stating "takes the word at face value" doesn't really mean a hill of beans.
ALL bibles are translations, all of them. Doesn't matter if you have a interlinear, literal, whatever. If you have a "greek" or "hebrew" source there is no place on the planet where it is not read in a translated manner, because that is the ONLY way anyone knows what it says.
. . .
So, I do see your point about PHD and education and there is a certain factor of that we as laymen are subject to. But, the thing is, I think most people understand "God is love" and perhaps it's time to see every verse in the bible through that love rather than the filter that excuses God from performing evil acts.
simple actually. Do not let men cloud your spirit with complicated messes.
Excellent. You do not need to have education or hermeneutic skills to understand Jesus and His example of the TRUE NATURE of God. The Holy Spirit is with us and when we use the filter of Jesus's love and acceptance as our truth detector . . . we can navigate the scriptures just fine. If you cannot imagine our loving Jesus doing, saying or wanting . . . whatever . . . IT IS NOT OF GOD, period! IT is primitive carnal savage misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
"Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster like the Islamic god "Allah". Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by the God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach."
Excellent. You do not need to have education or hermeneutic skills to understand Jesus and His example of the TRUE NATURE of God. The Holy Spirit is with us and when we use the filter of Jesus's love and acceptance as our truth detector . . . we can navigate the scriptures just fine. If you cannot imagine our loving Jesus doing, saying or wanting . . . whatever . . . IT IS NOT OF GOD, period! IT is primitive carnal savage misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementofA
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
"Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster like the Islamic god "Allah". Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by the God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach."
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