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Love you legoman . . I am STRESSED today . . . . cause I had this surgery on my eye muscle last Friday and going back again tomorrow . . . no offense . . .
Wish I was the DR.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm Italian raised in Brooklyn . . . .I don't take offense, like a good . . .shall we call it conversation . . . I can dish it, so I can take it, Blessings, Lifesigns
LOL ok take care! And I'm not sure the doctors have it easier.
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
.
As I have point out also, its alway the second half of God's message that is left out, which refutes UR.
"Why don't you try reading the next passages:"
Second half Isaiah 45:24 -25
"All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.
25 But in the LORD allthe descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult."
How can I not be sarcastic..I'll try.
God doesn't say all who rage against him are restored, now or sometime after this life. God doesn't say that those who are put to shame will still have the opportunity to be found righteous. And please don't insinuate that "Israel" represents the entire human race.
Hopefully you will believe the whole word of God, when contrasting the two i.e. "but..in the LORD"
Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."
Jesus is given all under him, and the dogs are sent away...never to be heard from.
Haven't you noticed that how much is taken away from a person once the time of grace is no longer is available...again notive the contrast between the two groups:
Matthew 25:29-31
29"For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance." this is only who was a believer at the time of Judgement Day
"Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him" Even if you have nothing, even that will be taken away. Its so complete that never have we a verse with a person being called by his\her name when sent away from God...they are refered to as "that servant", "those", "rich man", "worthless servant"
' And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-17-2009 at 11:05 PM..
As I have point out also, its alway the second half of God's message that is left out, which refutes UR.
"Why don't you try reading the next passages:"
Second half Isaiah 45:24 -25
"All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.
25 But in the LORD allthe descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult."
How can I not be sarcastic..I'll try.
That doesn't change the fact that every tongue swears allegiance. You asked where it says that. It says it right here:
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
You still have to explain why everyone swears allegiance. Unless you don't actually think every knee will bow.
Verse 24 says many are shamed. Yes. So what? Does shame = eternal torment? Apparently you believe so (correct me if I am wrong).
Same with verse 25. Does it prove eternal torment? You are forgetting that all will eventually be made righteous through Christ. Romans 5:18-19. But of course you only believe that is "many". Its ok I understand.
Quote:
God doesn't say all who rage against him are restored, now or sometime after this life. God doesn't say that those who are put to shame will still have the opportunity to be found righteous. And please don't insinuate that "Israel" represents the entire human race.
Hopefully you will believe the whole word of God, when contrasting the two i.e. "but..in the LORD"
You are changing the topic. I never said all were made righteous in Isaiah 45. I said all swear allegiance in Isaiah 45. But since you want to see where all are made righteous, here it is. Perhaps you will believe the whole word of God:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Let me guess, you think its only some who are made righteous. Just like its only some who are sinners right?
God will restore all when He reconciles the world, reconciles all things, wipes away every tear, and makes all things new.
Quote:
Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."
Jesus is given all under him, and the dogs are sent away...never to be heard from.
Actually Jesus is given everything eventually as I showed you previously. ALL are subject to Jesus, and then Jesus hands all over to the Father so that God is all in all.
Do you think God's grace runs out? Does his mercy expire? Even when we reject it? Remember, all will swear allegiance to Him one day. They no longer reject Him.
Quote:
Haven't you noticed that how much is taken away from a person once the time of grace is no longer is available...again notive the contrast between the two groups:
Matthew 25:29-31
29"For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance." this is only who was a believer at the time of Judgement Day
"Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him" Even if you have nothing, even that will be taken away. Its so complete that never have we a verse with a person being called by his\her name when sent away from God...they are refered to as "that servant", "those", "rich man", "worthless servant"
' And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Yes I agree. But where does it say anything about eternal hell? It doesn't. This is not the end.
Does God change his heart and character? God wills that all be saved. Does this will change sometime?
You are making the classical flawed ET arguement.
1. Some will not be willing to be saved
2. And God will not be willing to save some
But I just showed you that all will be willing to be saved because they all swear allegiance to Him.
If God is not willing to save all at some point, then you have a problem. To believe this you have to believe God changes his basic will and character. Does God's grace expire (even when some forsake it)? Does God's mercy end? Will God change His mind about you someday?
How about God's wrath? Does God's wrath end?
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
This is an important question I want you to answer twin.spin. How about God's love: Do you believe God's love covers over all wrongs?
Prov 10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
#3 is a new one....everyone will swear allegiance? What verse is that?!
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
With that said...when a person is drawn to the Lord after being separated from Him...are they not shameful? Consider this carefully.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Other than that, point by point:
1A. Matthew 23:37
Yes. God desires all and I agree, concure the first part of the verse Jesus says "how often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings" Sure sounds like desire to me, don't you?
Someone should really clue Jesus in on how wrong he is...maybe you.
First things first...this verse is not directed to all unbelievers. It is directed toward the Jews who are rejecting Him. Was God/Jesus not always with the Jews through the entire OT? This is the point Jesus is making...I have been with you all this time but you refuse to do what I tell you to do to receive the blessings of the covenant. They took God's covenant and totally twisted it and turned into a covenenat of bondage for the people...surely you know this for it is mentioned many times in the NT.
This is the biggest problem with Christians today...they read the Bible as if it were written directly to them...it's not. It was written in the 1st century to 1st century people...when you remove the audience to which the words were spoken, this is where much confusion enters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I know this may sound foreign, Jesus refer to unbelievers who are evil as dogs..they are not in with the righteous or given this mythical restoration
Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."
Jesus' description of evil people and where they are:
Now say this with me.... Jesus describes where the evil are
Revelation 22:15
"Outsideare the dogs..those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Again under your unitopia, Jesus wouldn't describe two crowds of people in very different terms and demeanor in his tone . He would have said something like...Outside are the dogs who made it in anyway because ...kumbayah
You do understand that dogs were not some family pet in Jesus day. Dogs were loathed as much as a pigs. For Jesus to call them a dog, it was insulting, degenerating, low life scum.
These dogs do not go through the gate.
Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs.".
FYI...Dogs were a derogatory term that were used by the Jews for the Gentiles and Jesus used it as such. Keep in mind, at this point, He is only looking for the lost Jews. When it is used in Rev...it is being used against the Jews and unbelievers. Until you understand that Rev is not speaking of a new and sinless physical world, you will never understand the meaning of it. These things happened in Jesus day...we are in the New Heavens and the New Earth...the dogs outside are those who are unbelievers but they can enter the city when God calls them. The door is not closed, it is never closed. Isa 11:6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb...Who were the wolves of Jesus day and who were the lambs? Is it still not true today?
(Mt 15:21-28) The Syrophoenician Woman (This is a Gentile)
21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." (This refers to vs. 24) 27But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
She humbled herself before the Lord and was found worthy. Jesus didn't look at whether she was Jew or Gentile...He looked at her heart. Jesus turns no one away...that is the point of this scripture. Before salvation was offered to the Gentiles, it was only offered to Jews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
God puts everything\one under Jesus feet....and your conclusion is "well ...that must mean kumbaya... Again that is looking at half of reality.
1 Corinthians 15:25
"For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."
One little word e n e m i e s just happens to universally be left out. As Gomer Pile would say ...surprise, surprise, surprise.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Departfromme, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
The devil is using universalism for deluding people or Jesus is hallucinating...Still your scenerio is those on the left of Jesus have big kahoonas and tell Jesus "who the heaven are you, we ain't departing" Because there are those who said you're going to UR me...therefore ..see it must be true!
For some reason you are under the mistaken impression that UR's don't believe in the Lake of Fire judgment...which is the punishment all receive. Believers undergo it as we are living by crucifying our old man (this is the second death)...Jesus even tells us himself that it can't hurt us and that is because He is walking with us. Unbelievers will undergo it after death. It is used for correction...and once all the sin and evil is burned up we believe God receives them all. Why would God create a vessel for destruction and not have mercy on that person when he/she had no control over whether or not he/she turned to the Lord? Why would God teach us to love our enemies, bless those who curse you, forgive someone 7 x 70, and on and on...are we somehow able to accomplish something God is not? Are we to have more mercy for others than God does? Please look in your heart honestly and tell me how you can truly believe that God, who gives us specific instructions on how to treat others which is summed up in walking in love, how will He not do the same? How will He not show the same mercy that we are told to show?
God has to call us to follow Him. Do you truly believe in your heart that if God hasn't called someone that He would torment them for eternity? That is the true delusion and it just keeps people living in fear.
The Good News is...Jesus is the Savior of the World!!!
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
With that said...when a person is drawn to the Lord after being separated from Him...are they not shameful? Consider this carefully.
First things first...this verse is not directed to all unbelievers. It is directed toward the Jews who are rejecting Him. Was God/Jesus not always with the Jews through the entire OT? This is the point Jesus is making...I have been with you all this time but you refuse to do what I tell you to do to receive the blessings of the covenant. They took God's covenant and totally twisted it and turned into a covenenat of bondage for the people...surely you know this for it is mentioned many times in the NT.
This is the biggest problem with Christians today...they read the Bible as if it were written directly to them...it's not. It was written in the 1st century to 1st century people...when you remove the audience to which the words were spoken, this is where much confusion enters.
[/color]
FYI...Dogs were a derogatory term that were used by the Jews for the Gentiles and Jesus used it as such. Keep in mind, at this point, He is only looking for the lost Jews. When it is used in Rev...it is being used against the Jews and unbelievers. Until you understand that Rev is not speaking of a new and sinless physical world, you will never understand the meaning of it. These things happened in Jesus day...we are in the New Heavens and the New Earth...the dogs outside are those who are unbelievers but they can enter the city when God calls them. The door is not closed, it is never closed. Isa 11:6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb...Who were the wolves of Jesus day and who were the lambs? Is it still not true today?
(Mt 15:21-28) The Syrophoenician Woman (This is a Gentile)
21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." (This refers to vs. 24) 27But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
She humbled herself before the Lord and was found worthy. Jesus didn't look at whether she was Jew or Gentile...He looked at her heart. Jesus turns no one away...that is the point of this scripture. Before salvation was offered to the Gentiles, it was only offered to Jews.
For some reason you are under the mistaken impression that UR's don't believe in the Lake of Fire judgment...which is the punishment all receive. Believers undergo it as we are living by crucifying our old man (this is the second death)...Jesus even tells us himself that it can't hurt us and that is because He is walking with us. Unbelievers will undergo it after death. It is used for correction...and once all the sin and evil is burned up we believe God receives them all. Why would God create a vessel for destruction and not have mercy on that person when he/she had no control over whether or not he/she turned to the Lord? Why would God teach us to love our enemies, bless those who curse you, forgive someone 7 x 70, and on and on...are we somehow able to accomplish something God is not? Are we to have more mercy for others than God does? Please look in your heart honestly and tell me how you can truly believe that God, who gives us specific instructions on how to treat others which is summed up in walking in love, how will He not do the same? How will He not show the same mercy that we are told to show?
God has to call us to follow Him. Do you truly believe in your heart that if God hasn't called someone that He would torment them for eternity? That is the true delusion and it just keeps people living in fear.
The Good News is...Jesus is the Savior of the World!!!
Very Well said! The Good news is too good to be true, but it is!
23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength ' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
With that said...when a person is drawn to the Lord after being separated from Him...are they not shameful? Consider this carefully. The Good News is...Jesus is the Savior of the World!!!
Christy,
Would you mind not using all red .. kinda hard on read.
I'm not aware of what translation uses "allegiance", even YLT doesn't use it...........the most go to translation thought to be better by UR'ers
I can't possibly engage in a conversation about this when you say that it's your belief is that the Bible is out of date for todays readers
" the biggest problem with Christians today...they read the Bible as if it were written directly to them...it's not. It was written in the 1st century to 1st century people..."
Do you believe your own words when you say: The Good News is...Jesus is the Savior of the World!!!
To answer your question Do you truly believe in your heart that if God hasn't called someone that He would torment them for eternity?
Answer: Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Yes because Jesus says so.
John 3:36 has the Good News!!!! and the consequence for rejecting
Christy,
Would you mind not using all red .. kinda hard on read.
I'm not aware of what translation uses "allegiance", even YLT doesn't use it...........the most go to translation thought to be better by UR'ers
I can't possibly engage in a conversation about this when you say that it's your belief is that the Bible is out of date for todays readers
" the biggest problem with Christians today...they read the Bible as if it were written directly to them...it's not. It was written in the 1st century to 1st century people..."
Do you believe your own words when you say: The Good News is...Jesus is the Savior of the World!!!
To answer your question Do you truly believe in your heart that if God hasn't called someone that He would torment them for eternity?
Answer: Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Yes because Jesus says so.
John 3:36 has the Good News!!!! and the consequence for rejecting
I never said the bible was out of date...what I tried to say was that you need to keep in mind who the bible was written to when you're reading it...there is a huge difference. The bible was written to 1st century people...it is about them and the events spoken of concern them...not us.
With that said, can you give me your definition or what you think "eternal life" is?
If ET or annihilation is true , reading this forum i think a lot of christians will be very happy about it.
That is very, very, very sad:crying :
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