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Sorry, I disagree, ILNC. The scriptures do not teach that hell is eternal. The word that is applied to the word translated as "hell" means "of or relating to an age, literally", and we know that many words that have been translated as "eternal" in some translations do not mean eternal. Examples:
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).
Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no
more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will
"restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).
=Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
How many believers rejected Him at one time and His wrath was not eternal. There is an end to His wrath because it has a higher purpose. Hope all is well with you God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-06-2009 at 10:34 PM..
1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJV)
I just don't understand how so many people miss this. How i missed it for so many years ... He is so specific! ... He couldn't get anymore specific ... !
Like I say, 1 Timothy is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy. we must read and understand it's contents from the point of view of Timothy and the understanding he has with Paul.
In this verse-1 Timothy 4:9-11, when Paul uses the phrase 'all men', he was refering to all the men in Timothy's church at that time. Since Paul knows that there are those that goes to the church and are still unbelievers, he qualifies his statement by putting the "especially of those who believe." In principle and context, this is applicable to all churches.
With all due respect, I am NOT trying to win. I am only trying to put up an alternate interpretation base on the principle of author of letter to recipient common/implied understanding and context versus the literal interpretation that you put up. Let the reader read and understand which is correct as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Like I say, 1 Timothy is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy. we must read and understand it's contents from the point of view of Timothy and the understanding he has with Paul.
In this verse-1 Timothy 4:9-11, when Paul uses the phrase 'all men', he was refering to all the men in Timothy's church at that time. Since Paul knows that there are those that goes to the church and are still unbelievers, he qualifies his statement by putting the "especially of those who believe." In principle and context, this is applicable to all churches.
With all due respect, I am NOT trying to win. I am only trying to put up an alternate interpretation base on the principle of author of letter to recipient common/implied understanding and context versus the literal interpretation that you put up. Let the reader read and understand which is correct as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when in the book of Acts chapter 5 says this
and of the rest no one was daring to join himself to them, but the people were magnifying them.
It wasn't Timothy's church . Assembling themselves together as these did , is a far cry off what we call church .</SPAN>
I am only saying Paul is a personal letter to Timothy and the church Timothy was in.
1 Timothy
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
God cannot and will not forgive the sinners at judgement day. He cannot justify the wicked. (sinners/unbelievers/non-elect)
[SIZE=2]
Proverbs 17: 15 - He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquitthe wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
It is the law of the Lord Most High that sinners must die and will not come alive again.
[SIZE=2]Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
To save and restore all men, the law of the Lord God must be broken. First, He must forgive the sinners meaning justifying the wicked. Second, the dead must come alive. This the Lord will not do because he has spoken it.
God cannot and will not forgive the sinners at judgement day. He cannot justify the wicked. (sinners/unbelievers/non-elect)
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Proverbs 17: 15 - He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquitthe wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]It is the law of the Lord Most High that sinners must die and will not come alive again.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]To save and restore all men, the law of the Lord God must be broken. First, He must forgive the sinners meaning justifying the wicked. Second, the dead must come alive. This the Lord will not do because he has spoken it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The Lord God does not change His words. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
That's true in so long as the wicked remain in their rebellion against God. Once the wrath of God and all the curse of the law is upon the wicked, if they repent and seek God with all their heart, they will find God and God will receive them and circumcise their heart to love God. That is the law. If God rejects their repentance, the law of God is broken. see Deuteronomy ch 28-30. God's mercy endures "forever" or "through the ages". That's not just a platitude.
I am only saying Paul is a personal letter to Timothy and the church Timothy was in.
1 Timothy
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
If I wrote you a personal letter, can I not talk about "you", "your family", "people in your church", "people in your state", "people in your country", "all men" using those various words. Just because I'm writing a letter to you does not mean I can not talk to you about all mankind. For example in Paul's letter to the Romans Paul proves that there is none good and all are under sin, etc. God is talking to the Romans about all mankind.
When Paul wants to talk about different groups he uses different words: (1) thee, thou; (2) the brethren, believers, we (3) the presbytery (4) all men
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
If Paul was only talking about the church why would he not just say "we trust in the living God, who is our Saviour"
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-07-2009 at 06:50 AM..
Furthermore: the word "all" must be looked at in context. In general, all means all unless something must limit that meaning to less than a literal "all".
Back to Presby's example. A boss calls a meeting, and writes a letter to his employees: all men must come to the meeting in the cafeteria.
Clearly the boss's letter must be understood to NOT mean literally ALL men in the universe. The context is the boss's company, and it would be impossible and non-sensical for him to be referring to all people in the universe.
Now back to the scripture. We have Paul writing a letter to Timothy.
Paul says: God is the savior of all men, and especially of believers.
Is there any reason to limit this use of "all"? Could this all be literally referring to all people who ever existed in the universe? The answer is YES, therefore the meaning of all does not need to be limited. Unlike the example with the boss, the boss could clearly NOT be referring to all people so there was an implied limitation. There is no implied limitation necessary when analyzing 1 Tim 2:4 and 1 Tim 4:10 as it is speaking of God, who is in no way limited like the boss is.
True, "all" does not always have to literally mean all, but only when an implied limitation must make it so. We cannot and must not apply an implied limitation when none is necessary, otherwise words cease to have meaning and we can bend them to say anything we desire.
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God bless.
