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Noah, not Moses No, I did not miss the point. The God of Noah's time is the same God we have today, so you better believe it he is capable of things which might raise your eye brows. The thing you don't understand is the fact that we will never fully understand God's ways and his purpose. So, when you guys try to use your limited intelligence to figure out God, and come to conclusion that God will never judge people, you are doomed to fail. His ways are not our ways, and His thought are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8), and “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” (Deutronomy). His justice is His justice, even if it doesn't make sense to your limited intelligence.
your silly attempt to threaten me with "Gods ways",is funny and just dosent work with me,i like many others have enough intelligence to question what God's nature is supposed to be like.-you see we know the difference between good and evil,it is around us everyday,and those who harm others ,especially those who torture are the most evil,now if you want to beleive that God is the seame as hitler,then go ahead,but you cant fool us!!!
fair enough if you think that God is the one who set up life knowing fully well that people will come here fail and end up in an eternal torment,and that he will be the judge,jurer and executionor of billions of people,to send them to an eternity of torment,and you call that fair and just,please dont make me laugh!!!!!!
question!!!!-on which day did God create this eternal hell place????
question!!!!-do animals go to hell????
question!!!!-what about children,do they go to hell when they are too to understand your doctrine????
question!!!!-when people are born into different cultures and religions,do they go to hell because they were born into such cultures????
question!!!!-does someone that never heard nor seen a bible in their lifetime,do they go to hell????
You honestly can't say that setting people on fire is fair. You can't have it both ways. Either God is fair and won't set people on fire forever, or God is NOT fair and will set people on fire forever. If you believe he'll do that, then it would stand to reason that you would say you don't understand it, but don't try to pass it off as fair because any person with a heart who can think for themselves would say frying, baking, grilling, or boiling a human being for any amount of time is nothing short of EVIL.
Can you say it is fair to destroy all people in a flood? Or at Isiah's time send Assyrian army to destroy Jerusalem, kill the men, smash infants, and rape the women? Is it fair? Again, God's ways are not your ways, and you may not find it fair. You can judge God all you want and believe whatever you want, but it won't change the scriptures. Also, he grilled the people in Sodom and Gomorroh. Same God, and you say it is evil.
You do not realize it, but you are trying to use your limited intelligence and sense of fairness to judge God.
"I do feel sorry that you set yourself above the authority of Jesus, who has been given that authority by God. ......
Quote:
...... this whole thing is about who determines ToS (Terms of salvation) "
"THERE IS NO GREATER EVIL THAN THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENT" (see the OP)
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS IN GREEK AND HEBREW
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I posted on this forum to guide folk to an alternate point of view.
Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to actually prefer to (or at least, have to) suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 71 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT THE GREEK AND THE HEBREW AND THE SUBJECT OF ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words,
“My Greek and Hebrew scholars are more reliable than your Greek and Hebrew scholars,”
and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Lois Abbott An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective. Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:4
You have been fed lies.
"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
your silly attempt to threaten me with "Gods ways",is funny and just dosent work with me,i like many others have enough intelligence to question what God's nature is supposed to be like.-
Do you feel threatened by seeing Bible verses?
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I can assure you that you do not come anywhere near the intelligence of God, and your sense of justice comes nowhere near either. I think you have a inflated image of yourself, and if you think you are smart enough to judge God, you might be in for a rude awakening.
their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.
You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John. Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God.
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24).
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
In summary then: The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.
THE LAKE OF FIRE The Lake of Fire
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10).
The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it. L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 1 L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - part 2 L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 3 Merciful Truth - The Meaning of The Cross
Interested people will examine the evidence and decide
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
You have been fed lies.
Interested people will examine the evidence and decide for themselves about the validity of it.
"THERE IS NO GREATER EVIL THAN THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENT" (see the OP)
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS IN GREEK AND HEBREW
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I posted on this forum to guide folk to an alternate point of view.
Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to actually prefer to (or at least, have to) suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 71 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT THE GREEK AND THE HEBREW AND THE SUBJECT OF ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words,
“My Greek and Hebrew scholars are more reliable than your Greek and Hebrew scholars,”
and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Lois Abbott An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective. Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I can assure you that you do not come anywhere near the intelligence of God, and your sense of justice comes nowhere near either. I think you have a inflated image of yourself, and if you think you are smart enough to judge God, you might be in for a rude awakening.
yet you think you have the inteligence to judge God as a being who is incapable of showing-care,commpassion,patience,tolerance,understanding and al the things that make up love-do you really think hat a God who teaches to love your enemys would send his to an eternity in hell,dosent make sense now does it,of course you will say that it dosent have to make sense,and you seem to be good at avoiding questions too,
justice is reaping what you sow,not torturing people for eternity,that is demonic,again you attempt to threatan me is only laughable,God loves me just as much as He loves anyone else,you see thats the difference between Him and the rest of us,His love is unconditional,we choose who we want to love but He who is above all else is immpartial to everyone,thats because he is fair,yes He has a justice system,we will reap what we sow,we gat back what we put out,our actions have effect,but torturing souls for eternity is damn-right evil,and i think you know that,but are afraid to accept it,because of the fear that was programed into your head,,or maybe you take pleasure in thinking people will burn forever,and that is definitly something sick!!!!!
how can anyone be happy in heaven knowing that their freinds and family are being tortured in hell???
Last edited by dobeable; 10-31-2010 at 08:29 AM..
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No, I did not miss the point. The God of Noah's time is the same God we have today, so you better believe it he is capable of things which might raise your eye brows. The thing you don't understand is the fact that we will never fully understand God's ways and his purpose. So, when you guys try to use your limited intelligence to figure out God, and come to conclusion that God will never judge people, you are doomed to fail. His ways are not our ways, and His thought are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8), and “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” (Deutronomy). His justice is His justice, even if it doesn't make sense to your limited intelligence.
The purpose of god's judgments
What the bible says in greek and hebrew
