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A believer is one that can walk contrary to sin. We can never of OUR works produce righteousness but of HIS works through us we can. Remember, Grace is a gift and not of ourselves. It is TRUE that works are required but not OUR Works but rather His Works are required to be performed by us. He has the copyright to all GOOD Works whether we perform them or not.
So the only way to grow in Grace is Faith plus works.
Paul
Of cause we cannot produce our own righteousness and and of cause by grace the believer as been saved, through faith—and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that none of us can boast.
Works are not required at all in any shape or form to be performed by us , our works are a result of knowing .
John chapter 15 clearly teaches this .
You and i have touched on this before on another thread , God is not dealing with sin in our lives and neither should the believer , God is dealingwith us and God is conforming us to His image,this involves, humbling brokenness and death , so His life His poured forth.
A believer is one that can walk contrary to sin. We can never of OUR works produce righteousness but of HIS works through us we can. Remember, Grace is a gift and not of ourselves. It is TRUE that works are required but not OUR Works but rather His Works are required to be performed by us. He has the copyright to all GOOD Works whether we perform them or not.
So the only way to grow in Grace is Faith plus works.
Paul
In your first post you addressed the issue of salvation. And I responded to that. Every verse I listed talked about believing, which is faith.
But here you are talking about growing in grace which is something different. After we believe in Christ, God leaves us here on earth so that we can decide if we are going to advance to spritual maturity or not. As you grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior, your spiritual production increases. And you will produce good works as a result. But the works, the production is a result of your growth, and not the means of producing your growth. Spiritual growth is the result of learning the word of God and applying it to the circumstances of your life. In other words, you learn to trust God more and more to handle the details of your life and to let go of your worries and turn your problems over to him.You increase your capacity to handle the problems in life and to approach your life from the divine viewpoint. Now, applying the knowledge you learn is not works in and of itself, it is an increase in your faith. And as your faith and your knowledge of God increases so will your motivation to produce. But remember that you can do the exact same work on two different occasions. On one occasion you are under the control of the Holy Spirit because you have named your known sins to God. Let's say you gave a cup of water to a thirsty person. Now because you are under the control of God the Holy Spirit, what you just did is spiritual production, divine good, and will be found by God at the Judgment Seat of Christ to be gold,silver, or prescious stones. But on another occasion, you give that cup of water to someone, but this time you had committed some sin and had failed to name it to God as per 1 John 1:9. So at the time you give the cup of water you are out of fellowship with God, and in a state of carnality. You are under the control of your sin nature, and so the work that you just did in giving the cup of water is human good and is not spiritual production, and will be found by Christ at the Judgment Seat to be wood, hay and stubble. And that work will be burned and you will not be rewarded for it.
So, salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
Spiritual growth is by faith and also involves works as a result of your being motivated by your faith.
I hope I wasn't confusing.
But now, your righteousness before God is, well first of all, when you believe in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and imputes it to your body. Then God the Father imputes His very own righteousness to you. Because He see's His righteousness in you, He pronounces you justified. You are justified by God because you have His righteousness. But, this is positional sanctification. As you grow to spiritual maturity, you reach a point where you become experientally sanctified.
To put it another way, at the moment you believe in Christ, you are adopted as an adult son into the family of God. But, experientally, you start out your spiritual life as a spiritual infant. As you learn Bible doctrine and apply it to your life, you grow spiritually. At that point in the future when we are physically resurrected, we become ultimately sanctifed.
Regarding righteousness by faith, we have:
Phil 3:9 'and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God in the basis of faith.'
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
All of Romans 3 and 4 are about justification by faith.
Of cause we cannot produce our own righteousness and and of cause by grace the believer as been saved, through faith—and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that none of us can boast.
Works are not required at all in any shape or form to be performed by us , our works are a result of knowing .
John chapter 15 clearly teaches this .
You and i have touched on this before on another thread , God is not dealing with sin in our lives and neither should the believer , God is dealingwith us and God is conforming us to His image,this involves, humbling brokenness and death , so His life His poured forth.
The bolded part is where your wrong. The works ARE REQUIRED to be performed. To say otherwise is to contradict God's Word. Please refer to the parable of the talents/pounds.
The works that don't save us is OUR Works - that means those works of man - that pertain to the flesh. But His (Jesus Christ) works through us are required to be saved.
Anything else is preaching that dead faith can access Grace. Do you realize that?
In your first post you addressed the issue of salvation. And I responded to that. Every verse I listed talked about believing, which is faith.
But here you are talking about growing in grace which is something different. After we believe in Christ, God leaves us here on earth so that we can decide if we are going to advance to spritual maturity or not. As you grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior, your spiritual production increases. And you will produce good works as a result. But the works, the production is a result of your growth, and not the means of producing your growth. Spiritual growth is the result of learning the word of God and applying it to the circumstances of your life. In other words, you learn to trust God more and more to handle the details of your life and to let go of your worries and turn your problems over to him.You increase your capacity to handle the problems in life and to approach your life from the divine viewpoint. Now, applying the knowledge you learn is not works in and of itself, it is an increase in your faith. And as your faith and your knowledge of God increases so will your motivation to produce. But remember that you can do the exact same work on two different occasions. On one occasion you are under the control of the Holy Spirit because you have named your known sins to God. Let's say you gave a cup of water to a thirsty person. Now because you are under the control of God the Holy Spirit, what you just did is spiritual production, divine good, and will be found by God at the Judgment Seat of Christ to be gold,silver, or prescious stones. But on another occasion, you give that cup of water to someone, but this time you had committed some sin and had failed to name it to God as per 1 John 1:9. So at the time you give the cup of water you are out of fellowship with God, and in a state of carnality. You are under the control of your sin nature, and so the work that you just did in giving the cup of water is human good and is not spiritual production, and will be found by Christ at the Judgment Seat to be wood, hay and stubble. And that work will be burned and you will not be rewarded for it.
So, salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
Spiritual growth is by faith and also involves works as a result of your being motivated by your faith.
I hope I wasn't confusing.
But now, your righteousness before God is, well first of all, when you believe in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and imputes it to your body. Then God the Father imputes His very own righteousness to you. Because He see's His righteousness in you, He pronounces you justified. You are justified by God because you have His righteousness. But, this is positional sanctification. As you grow to spiritual maturity, you reach a point where you become experientally sanctified.
To put it another way, at the moment you believe in Christ, you are adopted as an adult son into the family of God. But, experientally, you start out your spiritual life as a spiritual infant. As you learn Bible doctrine and apply it to your life, you grow spiritually. At that point in the future when we are physically resurrected, we become ultimately sanctifed.
Regarding righteousness by faith, we have:
Phil 3:9 'and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God in the basis of faith.'
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
All of Romans 3 and 4 are about justification by faith.
I hope this helps.
Romans 10:1-10
In my message I was clear that to continue in Grace requires Works - His Works. Remember to be saved is to receive Eternal Life. Recall that Paul preached that we will receive Eternal Life (Salvation) based on works:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Notice that? Eternal life is going to be given to those ACCORDING to the works they did.
In your first post you addressed the issue of salvation. And I responded to that. Every verse I listed talked about believing, which is faith.
But here you are talking about growing in grace which is something different. After we believe in Christ, God leaves us here on earth so that we can decide if we are going to advance to spritual maturity or not. As you grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior, your spiritual production increases. And you will produce good works as a result. But the works, the production is a result of your growth, and not the means of producing your growth. Spiritual growth is the result of learning the word of God and applying it to the circumstances of your life. In other words, you learn to trust God more and more to handle the details of your life and to let go of your worries and turn your problems over to him.You increase your capacity to handle the problems in life and to approach your life from the divine viewpoint. Now, applying the knowledge you learn is not works in and of itself, it is an increase in your faith. And as your faith and your knowledge of God increases so will your motivation to produce. But remember that you can do the exact same work on two different occasions. On one occasion you are under the control of the Holy Spirit because you have named your known sins to God. Let's say you gave a cup of water to a thirsty person. Now because you are under the control of God the Holy Spirit, what you just did is spiritual production, divine good, and will be found by God at the Judgment Seat of Christ to be gold,silver, or prescious stones. But on another occasion, you give that cup of water to someone, but this time you had committed some sin and had failed to name it to God as per 1 John 1:9. So at the time you give the cup of water you are out of fellowship with God, and in a state of carnality. You are under the control of your sin nature, and so the work that you just did in giving the cup of water is human good and is not spiritual production, and will be found by Christ at the Judgment Seat to be wood, hay and stubble. And that work will be burned and you will not be rewarded for it.
So, salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
Spiritual growth is by faith and also involves works as a result of your being motivated by your faith.
I hope I wasn't confusing.
But now, your righteousness before God is, well first of all, when you believe in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and imputes it to your body. Then God the Father imputes His very own righteousness to you. Because He see's His righteousness in you, He pronounces you justified. You are justified by God because you have His righteousness. But, this is positional sanctification. As you grow to spiritual maturity, you reach a point where you become experientally sanctified.
To put it another way, at the moment you believe in Christ, you are adopted as an adult son into the family of God. But, experientally, you start out your spiritual life as a spiritual infant. As you learn Bible doctrine and apply it to your life, you grow spiritually. At that point in the future when we are physically resurrected, we become ultimately sanctifed.
Regarding righteousness by faith, we have:
Phil 3:9 'and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God in the basis of faith.'
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
All of Romans 3 and 4 are about justification by faith.
I hope this helps.
Romans 10:1-10
That definitely helped me out. Thank you so much, and the Spirit that moved you to type this out. Such a blessing to have answers revealed.
In my message I was clear that to continue in Grace requires Works - His Works. Remember to be saved is to receive Eternal Life. Recall that Paul preached that we will receive Eternal Life (Salvation) based on works:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Notice that? Eternal life is going to be given to those ACCORDING to the works they did.
That is Paul saying that.
Paul is making a case with the Romans that the Law is set aside, that it has been surplanted by grace. He is explaining to them, exhorting with them, to abandon their legalistic attempts to be saved by works. He tells them what the demands of a Holy and just God are and what is required of them if they are to save themselves by their works. Indeed, he is arguing that they cannot save themselves by their works and to give up their dead orthodoxy and its tendency to abuse grace. As the Book of Romans progresses Paul develops and explains to the Romans that justification is by faith, and that salvation is by faith. And that through faith we are delivered from bondage to the Law. Paul expounds that believers are united to Christ and that since Christ fulfilled the demands of the Law and we are in Christ the Law then is dead. Romans 4 tells us that God reckons to us righteousness apart from works.
Yes, God is a just, and righteous, and Holy God. But our God is also merciful, and graceous. And through Christ, and by Christ, and in Christ, the righteous demands of our God have been met. Indeed, God has has given to us His very own righteousness and as a result He has pronounced us justified in His sight. And more, we are in Christ and so we share His righteousness. Ours is a double portion as befits the royalty of the family we have been born into.
Yes. This is Paul saying that. Listen to him. For his are the words of the Lord.
The bolded part is where your wrong. The works ARE REQUIRED to be performed. To say otherwise is to contradict God's Word. Please refer to the parable of the talents/pounds.
The works that don't save us is OUR Works - that means those works of man - that pertain to the flesh. But His (Jesus Christ) works through us are required to be saved.
Anything else is preaching that dead faith can access Grace. Do you realize that?
Paul
ttrtrep
You are entiltled to believe what you want to be believe. God is the cause and effect of everything good in a believers life.
Change in the believers life is born out of relationship , nothing more nothing less , the moment you veer from this you move into works and boasting.
Relationship is nothing to do with being theoretically or doctrinaly right and i personally think the title of your thread is just an attempt at you trying to be intellectually clever.
When Jesus was asked what must we do to work the works of God ? He replied believe , believing is trusting relying upon God which comes through relationship .
The believers life is about rest not works , when we rest then the life of God and His works are evident in us.John chapter 15.
We are His workmanship ? What does this mean ? It means He's changed us not changing what we do, changing what we do is the effect of Him changing us.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay (you and i) to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
To answer your question about dead faith , i do not know what to tell you . Grace inspires fath to come forth , i think again you have the cart before the horse. Grace would inspire those who possess even what you call dead faith when it appears to them.
You really suprise me what you are saying on this thread , knowing what you believe about the sovereignty of God and your going's back and forth with pnuema.
2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying: 3Blessed (happy, [a]to be envied, and [b]spiritually prosperous--[c]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the poor in spirit (the humble, who rate themselves insignificant), for theirs is the kingdom of heaven! 4Blessed and enviably happy [with a [d]happiness produced by the experience of God's favor and especially conditioned by the revelation of His matchless grace] are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted!(A) 5Blessed (happy, blithesome, joyous, [e]spiritually prosperous--[f]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the meek (the mild, patient, long-suffering), for they shall inherit the earth!(B) 6Blessed and fortunate and happy and [g]spiritually prosperous (in that state in which the born-again child of God [h]enjoys His favor and salvation) are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness (uprightness and right standing with God), for they shall be [i]completely satisfied!(C) 7Blessed (happy, [j]to be envied, and [k]spiritually prosperous--[l]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy! 8Blessed (happy, [m]enviably fortunate, and [n]spiritually prosperous--possessing the [o]happiness produced by the experience of God's favor and especially conditioned by the revelation of His grace, regardless of their outward conditions) are the pure in heart, for they shall see God!(D) 9Blessed (enjoying [p]enviable happiness, [q]spiritually prosperous--[r]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the makers and [s]maintainers of peace, for they shall be called the sons of God! 10Blessed and happy and [t]enviably fortunate and [u]spiritually prosperous [v](in the state in which the born-again child of God enjoys and finds satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of his outward conditions) are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake (for being and doing right), for theirs is the kingdom of heaven!
You are entiltled to believe what you want to be believe. God is the cause and effect of everything good in a believers life.
Change in the believers life is born out of relationship , nothing more nothing less , the moment you veer from this you move into works and boasting.
Relationship is nothing to do with being theoretically or doctrinaly right and i personally think the title of your thread is just an attempt at you trying to be intellectually clever.
When Jesus was asked what must we do to work the works of God ? He replied believe , believing is trusting relying upon God which comes through relationship .
The believers life is about rest not works , when we rest then the life of God and His works are evident in us.John chapter 15.
We are His workmanship ? What does this mean ? It means He's changed us not changing what we do, changing what we do is the effect of Him changing us.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay (you and i) to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
To answer your question about dead faith , i do not know what to tell you . Grace inspires fath to come forth , i think again you have the cart before the horse. Grace would inspire those who possess even what you call dead faith when it appears to them.
You really suprise me what you are saying on this thread , knowing what you believe about the sovereignty of God and your going's back and forth with pnuema.
2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying: 3Blessed (happy, [a]to be envied, and [b]spiritually prosperous--[c]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the poor in spirit (the humble, who rate themselves insignificant), for theirs is the kingdom of heaven! 4Blessed and enviably happy [with a [d]happiness produced by the experience of God's favor and especially conditioned by the revelation of His matchless grace] are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted!(A) 5Blessed (happy, blithesome, joyous, [e]spiritually prosperous--[f]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the meek (the mild, patient, long-suffering), for they shall inherit the earth!(B) 6Blessed and fortunate and happy and [g]spiritually prosperous (in that state in which the born-again child of God [h]enjoys His favor and salvation) are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness (uprightness and right standing with God), for they shall be [i]completely satisfied!(C) 7Blessed (happy, [j]to be envied, and [k]spiritually prosperous--[l]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy! 8Blessed (happy, [m]enviably fortunate, and [n]spiritually prosperous--possessing the [o]happiness produced by the experience of God's favor and especially conditioned by the revelation of His grace, regardless of their outward conditions) are the pure in heart, for they shall see God!(D) 9Blessed (enjoying [p]enviable happiness, [q]spiritually prosperous--[r]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the makers and [s]maintainers of peace, for they shall be called the sons of God! 10Blessed and happy and [t]enviably fortunate and [u]spiritually prosperous [v](in the state in which the born-again child of God enjoys and finds satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of his outward conditions) are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake (for being and doing right), for theirs is the kingdom of heaven!
Pcamps, you neglect the whole history of Israel when you claim that works are not a part of salvation. Remember the law and the prophets were our SCHOOLMASTER bringing us to Christ. When it says that Jesus didn't sin - it means that Jesus didn't break the Law of God. Pcamps, it sounds like you have embraced the doctrine of the nicolatanes and believe that simple believing in Christ but walking contrary to His Law is acceptable.
Pcamps, stop believing that Dead Faith can access Grace. Start believing in God's Word.
The works we rest from are our OWN works - His Works don't need to be rested from. His burden is light. It is HIS Works that are required to save us by us performing them. We don't own them - He does. If you have missed this understanding from scripture then you missed the NECESSARY ingredient to be saved.
Pcamps, you WILL NOT find in scripture a contradiction to what I'm saying. I CHALLENGE you to find contradiction in what I'm saying. Remember, Paul says that ETERNAL Life is based on Works!!! Ask yourself why would he say such a thing? Why would Paul say in one break that Grace is not of works and in another breath say that Eternal Life would be rendered based on works? - The answer is that works that they are based on is His (Jesus Christ) works. HOW ELSE CAN IT BE RECONCILED? Once you understand this a great cloud is lifted and you can now perceive just HOW we are being saved.
Paul is making a case with the Romans that the Law is set aside, that it has been surplanted by grace. He is explaining to them, exhorting with them, to abandon their legalistic attempts to be saved by works. He tells them what the demands of a Holy and just God are and what is required of them if they are to save themselves by their works. Indeed, he is arguing that they cannot save themselves by their works and to give up their dead orthodoxy and its tendency to abuse grace. As the Book of Romans progresses Paul develops and explains to the Romans that justification is by faith, and that salvation is by faith. And that through faith we are delivered from bondage to the Law. Paul expounds that believers are united to Christ and that since Christ fulfilled the demands of the Law and we are in Christ the Law then is dead. Romans 4 tells us that God reckons to us righteousness apart from works.
Yes, God is a just, and righteous, and Holy God. But our God is also merciful, and graceous. And through Christ, and by Christ, and in Christ, the righteous demands of our God have been met. Indeed, God has has given to us His very own righteousness and as a result He has pronounced us justified in His sight. And more, we are in Christ and so we share His righteousness. Ours is a double portion as befits the royalty of the family we have been born into.
Yes. This is Paul saying that. Listen to him. For his are the words of the Lord.
Again, your not understanding. What your trying to do is explain a way in keeping/hanging on to your flawed understanding.
You still preaching that dead faith can access Grace.
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