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No...that would take all the fun out of you studying and finding out for yourself.
But you didn't say what the question was... but I know what you are getting at. I did read through several articles on the website you posted, and there were some problems, not the least of which is they assume that God will not save all, just like the rest of mainstream Christianity.
As for preterism, the main problem I have with it is it says the resurrection is past... which makes no sense. Every single human will die, so at some point they will need to be resurrected. Further problems I see with preterism: Were all these prophecies fulfilled in 70 A.D?:
- every knee bowing and every tongue confessing before Christ
- all the nations of the world worshiping God (Psalm 22:27)
- all the Kings bow to the Lord and all nations serve Him (Psalm 72:11)
- all judgments were handed out (even the lake of fire judgment)
- everyone was resurrected (then how are we going to be resurrected?)
- death was defeated (yet people still die and apparently some will stay dead forever - doesn't sound like death was defeated to me)
Did these things all happen in 70 A.D?
Furthermore Revelations is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is, was, and will be. There are past, present, and future applications to all of revelations. NOT past ONLY, and NOT future ONLY.
Anyway this thread is supposed to be about your questions for universalists. Did you have any further questions on UR? How are your studies on it coming?
But you didn't say what the question was... but I know what you are getting at. I did read through several articles on the website you posted, and there were some problems, not the least of which is they assume that God will not save all, just like the rest of mainstream Christianity.
Yeah.. not all preterists believe in UR...not sure why.
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As for preterism, the main problem I have with it is it says the resurrection is past... which makes no sense. Every single human will die, so at some point they will need to be resurrected. Further problems I see with preterism: Were all these prophecies fulfilled in 70 A.D?:
- every knee bowing and every tongue confessing before Christ
Where is Christ right now? He died and was resurrected. So you have to be near him in order to bow and confess before Christ, right?
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- all the nations of the world worshiping God (Psalm 22:27)
Christianity has spread to all nations.
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- all the Kings bow to the Lord and all nations serve Him (Psalm 72:11)
I don't know what to say to this one.. I think whatever I say you may come back with the word "all" referring to Kings... so I will have to just let that one go for now.
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- all judgments were handed out (even the lake of fire judgment)
Judgment is at the throne. that would indicate after death.
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- everyone was resurrected (then how are we going to be resurrected?)
each in his own time. (I wish I had more time before going to work so I could list the scripture, sorry)
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- death was defeated (yet people still die and apparently some will stay dead forever - doesn't sound like death was defeated to me)
Jesus defeated death clearly on the cross by rising on the 3rd day.
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Did these things all happen in 70 A.D?
not necessarily since even futurists will admit some were fulfilled by Christ's death and resurrection.
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Furthermore Revelations is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is, was, and will be. There are past, present, and future applications to all of revelations. NOT past ONLY, and NOT future ONLY.
I'm not sure why you get that the future and past would make any sense if it were written to specific people in a specific time. Read the first few verses of Rev. 1 where John addresses the book to fellow servants of God... and also calls himself a servant. Then check out the last few passages of the book.. soon to come.
If I tell my child I will get them a candy bar soon and wait 2000 years I don't think they would ever trust me... LOL
Yeah.. not all preterists believe in UR...not sure why.
Where is Christ right now? He died and was resurrected. So you have to be near him in order to bow and confess before Christ, right?
Christianity has spread to all nations.
I don't know what to say to this one.. I think whatever I say you may come back with the word "all" referring to Kings... so I will have to just let that one go for now.
Judgment is at the throne. that would indicate after death.
each in his own time. (I wish I had more time before going to work so I could list the scripture, sorry)
Jesus defeated death clearly on the cross by rising on the 3rd day.
not necessarily since even futurists will admit some were fulfilled by Christ's death and resurrection.
I'm not sure why you get that the future and past would make any sense if it were written to specific people in a specific time. Read the first few verses of Rev. 1 where John addresses the book to fellow servants of God... and also calls himself a servant. Then check out the last few passages of the book.. soon to come.
If I tell my child I will get them a candy bar soon and wait 2000 years I don't think they would ever trust me... LOL
I get what you are saying Kat, and trust me I am not a futurist. A 2000 year candy bar is not soon. That is why I believe revelations has applications for past, present, and future... basically it is applicable for every generation.
IMHO Revelations largely describes what will happen in a believers life when they come to Christ - standing on the sand, beside the sea, watching the beast, realizing how they bought and sold with the mark, possibly even the lake of fire - these are all things that go on in our life when we come to Christ.
These things do happen "soon" in a person's life (not 2000 years later) - that is how I view "soon".
The scripture about each in their own order is 1 Cor 15:22-28 I believe that is the one you were looking for. And I don't see "each in their own order" as fulfilled in 70 A.D. I view it as past/present/and future. Is, was, and will be. Other prophecy also is applicable now, past, and future.
Got to run for lunch, we will chat more later. But check out this website, it is also UR focused:
I think common sinners are punished during lifetime, they face only little if any judgment after death.
some people were to evil to suffer an adequate punishment while on earth e.g. Hitler, I think they suffer a greater punishment at judgment day, I do not believe in a literal fire tormenting human beings or any kind of physical torture.
about the devils's judgment I have no idea
this what I think the bible teaches:
the dead wicked will rise in a mortal body, suffer mental punishment in front of the white throne and then be destroyed together with the old earth for an eon (second death), they will rise at the end of the eons and eventually take part in the world to come.
some wicked who survived the end times might be punished on earth in the millenium, maybe better to say rather educated/chastened than punished, at least not tormented, maybe some of them might be destroyed aswell (Isaiah 66:24 e.g.)
But you didn't say what the question was... but I know what you are getting at. I did read through several articles on the website you posted, and there were some problems, not the least of which is they assume that God will not save all, just like the rest of mainstream Christianity.
Quote:
Yes, some Preterists still believe that but not all of us do. Just like all websites, you have to sift through the error.
As for preterism, the main problem I have with it is it says the resurrection is past... which makes no sense. Every single human will die, so at some point they will need to be resurrected. Further problems I see with preterism: Were all these prophecies fulfilled in 70 A.D?:
- every knee bowing and every tongue confessing before Christ
- all the nations of the world worshiping God (Psalm 22:27)
- all the Kings bow to the Lord and all nations serve Him (Psalm 72:11)
- all judgments were handed out (even the lake of fire judgment)
- everyone was resurrected (then how are we going to be resurrected?)
- death was defeated (yet people still die and apparently some will stay dead forever - doesn't sound like death was defeated to me)
Did these things all happen in 70 A.D?
Quote:
The resurrection is past and pertained to those who had died previous to 70AD. Presently when we die we go directly to be with the Lord do we not? We have our spiritual resurrection now, in that, we walk in newness of life by crucifying our old man. If you get past the fact that the resurrection is not your physical body being raised out of the dirt but your spirit being raised to live with God forever you should get past that problem.
The judgment to be handed out back in that day was handed out to the Jews, just as Jesus said it would be. A careful reading of the scriptures shows this. Always remember who Jesus is talking to and when He is talking to them and this will also clear your understanding.
See I believe that the rest of the scriptures you listed are being fulfilled progressively with each and every person who dies and goes to meet the Lord. From my new understanding of the lake of fire/second death...I can see that those who were not in Christ at their physical death, will stand in shame because of the judgement against them and bow before the Lord because then they will know the truth and their correction will follow. Does this mean that one day all may follow Jesus on the earth? Who knows...I think God is capable of doing whatever He wants to do but I don't think His purposes would be served by it. Humans need to learn the hard way...it is just our nature.
If we could all get past the fact that the things written in the bible do not pertain to the physical earth, with physical bodies being resurrected, and a physical Jesus standing in the dirt...you will truly see God's kingdom as it is now. His kingdom is here now in each and every believer and this is how it is expanded and will never end.
Furthermore Revelations is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is, was, and will be. There are past, present, and future applications to all of revelations. NOT past ONLY, and NOT future ONLY.
I agree that there are many things we can learn from Christ's revealing but most of Revelations pertains to the Apostate Jews and how He handled them. We are in the New Heavens and the New Earth...but we sure don't act like it.
I agree that there are many things we can learn from Christ's revealing but most of Revelations pertains to the Apostate Jews and how He handled them. We are in the New Heavens and the New Earth...but we sure don't act like it.
Ok. This kind of statement makes no sense to me:
We are in the New Heavens and the New Earth...but we sure don't act like it.
How can we be in the new heavens and new earth right now? Look at all the sin in the world. This should be obvious.
I can understand how the "Kingdom" might be right now. The Kingdom is spiritual - it is within our hearts and our thoughts in our mind, it is our relationship with Christ, it is manifested in how we act in this world. But the old physical carnal world is still right here in front of me. People sin every day. I sin every day! I fight against it. I pray for God to work in me. And He does, slowly, but so far I have not overcome.
How can this be the new heaven and new earth?
My hope is in the resurrection as described in 1 Cor 15, where the corruptible will put on incorruption. So far I am very corruptible. I long for the day when I will be incorruptible, and will always do the right thing. What Preterism claims cannot be true because I don't know or see anyone who is incorruptible right now. Does this make sense? The physical flesh is corruptible, and it cannot inherit the Kingdom. We must wait patiently for the resurrection.
I get what you are saying Kat, and trust me I am not a futurist. A 2000 year candy bar is not soon. That is why I believe revelations has applications for past, present, and future... basically it is applicable for every generation.
IMHO Revelations largely describes what will happen in a believers life when they come to Christ - standing on the sand, beside the sea, watching the beast, realizing how they bought and sold with the mark, possibly even the lake of fire - these are all things that go on in our life when we come to Christ.
These things do happen "soon" in a person's life (not 2000 years later) - that is how I view "soon".
The scripture about each in their own order is 1 Cor 15:22-28 I believe that is the one you were looking for. And I don't see "each in their own order" as fulfilled in 70 A.D. I view it as past/present/and future. Is, was, and will be. Other prophecy also is applicable now, past, and future.
Got to run for lunch, we will chat more later. But check out this website, it is also UR focused:
I believe the same but also that the judgment promised to the nation of Israel happened in 70 AD, yet it is always happening in us and through us. I still believe all of it was finished way back when. Thanks for the verse. I was running late.
I think common sinners are punished during lifetime, they face only little if any judgment after death.
some people were to evil to suffer an adequate punishment while on earth e.g. Hitler, I think they suffer a greater punishment at judgment day, I do not believe in a literal fire tormenting human beings or any kind of physical torture.
about the devils's judgment I have no idea
this what I think the bible teaches:
the dead wicked will rise in a mortal body, suffer mental punishment in front of the white throne and then be destroyed together with the old earth for an eon (second death), they will rise at the end of the eons and eventually take part in the world to come.
some wicked who survived the end times might be punished on earth in the millenium, maybe better to say rather educated/chastened than punished, at least not tormented, maybe some of them might be destroyed aswell (Isaiah 66:24 e.g.)
I would agree except for the literal earth and world to come, unless you mean that figuratively.
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