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I sin but I am not a sinner I lie but I am not a lyer I love but I am not a lover I murder but I am not a murder I steal but I am not a thief
What you think or believe is irrelevant. I showed you scripture. You can't ignore it as hard as you try. Through your bias universalist understanding you want to ignore by saying, He shows wrath but somehow through His wrath is love which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.
What scripture says God is wrath? SHOW ME. God has wrath, God is not wrath. Maybe you don't understand the difference. God is wrathful (meaning He shows wrath), but He is not wrath itself. Compare to love: God not only shows love, He is love. Understand yet?
Do you have kids Fundy? I do. Sometimes I get angry at my little girl. Sometimes I have to discipline her. It is because I love her that I do this. Does this make sense?
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God does not enjoy His wrath on us, it saddens Him but it must be done because He is a just, vengeful God. All Holy attributes.
Sure, just like when a parent must discipline a child. Sometimes it hurts the parent more than the child, but the parent knows it must be done for the benefit and growth of the child.
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God is all these things, one attribute DOES NOT overshadow another attribute. You are speaking of a different god. I am saying, God is all these things and uses them accordinaly in righteousness and holiness and leaving it at that but you go on further with no scriptural support to show some hippie love that is neither biblical nor holy. You say one attribute overshadows another. The attributes you like that is. You are unable to separate wrath, anger, venegaful as positive through the holyness of God.
What verse is that?
God is consistent, all His attributes are consistent, it does not end, He is an eternal God so ALL His attributes are eternal.
The verse is this: God is love.
The point you are missing is this: love is not simply an attribute as you describe. God is love. He is the very essence of love. God is not the very essence of wrath, if so He would be wrathful all the time in everything He does. There is only one "attribute" that affects everything God does, and that is love, because He is love. Are you getting it yet?
Of course His love overshadows his other attributes, because He is love! What would be there to stop His wrath if He was not love? What would stop His wrath from wiping us all out? Surely you must understand His love is stronger than His wrath, otherwise we wouldn't even exist in the first place.
I am saying the DESCRIPTIONS and attributes given to the OT God were misunderstandings under the "veil" and do NOT REFLECT the TRUE NATURE of God . . . JESUS DOES.If you believe God shows wrath you do not understand God (or have not met your inner Jesus). This is human rationalization for our weaknesses that God does not have . . . wrath and love are opposite emotions and have nothing to do with each other. Vengeance is a human weakness to salve our hurt egos. God has no such hurt ego. God has NO NEGATIVE emotions, period. ALL such negative emotions are of human origins. To attribute any of them to God is an affront and complete misunderstanding of our loving God.
Ok fair enough. I think I am trying to describe what you just said. Everything that God does is positive and out of His love. I'll leave it at that.
What scripture says God is wrath? SHOW ME. God has wrath, God is not wrath. Maybe you don't understand the difference. God is wrathful (meaning He shows wrath), but He is not wrath itself. Compare to love: God not only shows love, He is love. Understand yet?
Do you have kids Fundy? I do. Sometimes I get angry at my little girl. Sometimes I have to discipline her. It is because I love her that I do this. Does this make sense?
Sure, just like when a parent must discipline a child. Sometimes it hurts the parent more than the child, but the parent knows it must be done for the benefit and growth of the child.
The verse is this: God is love.
The point you are missing is this: love is not simply an attribute as you describe. God is love. He is the very essence of love. God is not the very essence of wrath, if so He would be wrathful all the time in everything He does. There is only one "attribute" that affects everything God does, and that is love, because He is love. Are you getting it yet?
Of course His love overshadows his other attributes, because He is love! What would be there to stop His wrath if He was not love? What would stop His wrath from wiping us all out? Surely you must understand His love is stronger than His wrath, otherwise we wouldn't even exist in the first place.
Very well stated. God is love.
and how does one argue that God is NOT love?
"I am sorry but your universalism is causing you to be bias you want to ignore by saying, He shows wrath but somehow through His wrath is love which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever."
I show my wrath on my kids all the time. They do a bad thing. They get a punishment, repent (say sorry, learn a lesson) and we go about our business.
"I am sorry but your universalism is causing you to be bias you want to ignore by saying, He shows wrath but somehow through His wrath is love which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever."
I show my wrath on my kids all the time. They do a bad thing. They get a punishment, repent (say sorry, learn a lesson) and we go about our business.
That is showing love. God is LOVE.
That is also human . . . not godly. You want them to obey you to LEARN how to avoid the negative consequences of certain behaviors . . . (But being human . . you also want authority over them and won't brook rebelliousness). God just wants us to learn to avoid the negative consequences, period . . . no authority issues or "punishment" for rebellious disobedience involved.
That is also human . . . not godly. You want them to obey you to LEARN how to avoid the negative consequences of certain behaviors . . . (But being human . . you also want authority over them and won't brook rebelliousness). God just wants us to learn to avoid the negative consequences, period . . . no authority issues or "punishment" for rebellious disobedience involved.
I was trying to show that God's wrath (if for corrective purposes which is agreed upon) cannot last forever. Sometimes I adopt the "language" spoken to get my message across.
Anyhow I believe we are punished for our wrongdoings in this life (break the rules go to jail) and that God does want us to learn to avoid negative consequences.
"I am sorry but your universalism is causing you to be bias you want to ignore by saying, He shows wrath but somehow through His wrath is love which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever."
I show my wrath on my kids all the time. They do a bad thing. They get a punishment, repent (say sorry, learn a lesson) and we go about our business.
That is showing love. God is LOVE.
Thanks Kat! At least one person understands what I am trying to get across.
And IMHO this is the most important thing we need to understand in this life: Love. God is love, and we need to learn how to love.
That means: patience, kindness, selflessness, humility, forgiveness, protecting, hoping, trusting, and persevering. We need to learn how to do these things all the time. That's the purpose of life folks!
Thanks Kat! At least one person understands what I am trying to get across.
And IMHO this is the most important thing we need to understand in this life: Love. God is love, and we need to learn how to love.
That means: patience, kindness, selflessness, humility, forgiveness, protecting, hoping, trusting, and persevering. We need to learn how to do these things all the time. That's the purpose of life folks!
And boy is it a challenge sometimes!!! I still cannot see how you can argue that God is NOT love... I can see arguing the UR is a trap of the devil but that God is not love...
And boy is it a challenge sometimes!!! I still cannot see how you can argue that God is NOT love... I can see arguing the UR is a trap of the devil but that God is not love...
Yep, makes you wonder who the devil is really trapping...
He shows wrath but somehow through His wrath is love which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.
It does make sense, because God's wrath is beneficial to the sinner. God's wrath is a loving thing to do.
Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
God's wrath humbles the sinner
Lamentations 3:19 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall. 20 My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.
God's wrath puts a sinner in a position where he must trust in God's mercy.
Lamentations 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
It is good for a man to wait for salvation which without God's wrathful judgment of sin, no salvation would be needed.
Lamentations 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
It is good for a man to bear the burden of his sin, which again would not take place if God ignored sin.
Lamentations 3:27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth
For humans . . . they absolutely cannot exist at the same time . . . and wrath is a negative human emotion caused by the weakness of a hurt ego . . . that never exists within God . . . God has NO WEAKNESSES.
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