Regarding the Pre-Tribulational Rapture (crucified, Epistles, hell, beliefs)
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I'm slow but finally on to you now. You take someones posting and twist it to make it look wrong compared to what you believe. Do not put words into my mouth and I'm finished addressing this foolishness of yours.
You need to spend more time defending what you believe instead of misrepresenting what others believe.
Good lord is that a cop out or what? If you can't understand what is said about the seals on the prophecy then how can you say you understand whether it is pre-trib or post or future at all?
It was the reference to the past that gotcha eh? seems like that gets a lot of futurists. I am used to it. It was foreign to me too until I researched my idea that that was the time it was most likely to happen..
To each his own....
But don't accuse me of misrepresenting you.. this is what you said: (You edited the post but the quote remains intact..)
"2000 years as short time and 400 years as a long time makes PERFECT sense to me.What part of time do you not understand ? 400 years compared to 70 years is a long time. 2000 years compared to eternity is a very short time."
That is what you said... LOL Yet in the post you edited it at 8:04 and posted your drivel about how I misrepresent you at 8:24.. My time of course... Nice try... I call that lying.
I don't do Bible math..
But that is all I see people willing to do here.
Numbers, oh how we love our numbers.....
I avoid all forms of bible math because it always leads to error.
You start out fine, just taking down a few verses that have a number or two listed in their text.
Then you start to place meanings to the numbers....Ah, now you start to edit the way the numbers add up so it comes to a date that is in the future, because it would be silly to add up to a date that has passed.
Soon you talk yourself into believing that your ability to do math has unlocked a hidden understanding...
You have found the key!
Well lucky you!....
But in the end, the date you came up with will pass.....
Not that the Bible was wrong, but your skills with crossing mathematics with biblical interpretation sure were...
and do you learn form this?
Oh yes, you learn that it was just because you forgot to add some other numbers to you total.....
This will go right over your head, but; one word of vocabulary saves a thousand words of explanation. The English word rapture, speaks of the event and concept that is revealed in passages such as 1 Thess. 4:11-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Phil 3:21; Titus 2:13; and John 14:1-3. Now you will ignore these, and without having any knowledge of the doctrines that are involved concerning the exit-resurrection of the Church, you will just continue to deny the reality of the blessed hope. It's your loss.
Your condemnation of C.I. Scofield speaks volumes.
Racial dispensationalists dump more than Scripture into the pot with the un-biblical label "Rapture." Not all put the same verses in there either. It is not capable of being adjusted to God's Word since it is a term foreign to the words God chose to make His revelation known. If we would discuss the Scripture passages you enumerated, or terms in them, we would be dealing with what God has said. As earlier explained, this is an ideal example of how people are deceived by using words of men's tradition rather than Words of God's revelation. I beg for the honor due God by putting His Word before that of men. His choices of words was excellent. He also chose not to say certain things bandied about as true by many refusing to submit to His vocabulary, preferring rather the traditions of men.
The "Blessed Hope" to which you refer is not "The Rapture." This is obvious due to the fact that word is not in the Scripture. The Biblical "Blessed Hope" is bodily resurrection from the dead and translation of our physical bodies of humiliation into bodies like Jesus' body of glory. Death in all its forms will be abolished is God's sure word.
There is no statement in the Bible of any "exit of the Church." The Church is the channel of God's blessing to the world. The Church is at the center of God's plan for the transition into the milennium. The Church is not going to disappear as the devil might prefer. Even though many practice disappearing by sitting in the pew as passive recipients rather than active participants will not confirm any disappearing Church. Again, some poison stirred into the "Rapture" pot. "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." The appearance of the Head does not mean the disappearance of the body. The devil is not going to take over planet earth, the saints of God are going to enter into His glory and reign with Christ.
I would expect you to also defend the authority of men and their performances rather than every member being led by the Head of the body present in His people by the Holy Ghost when the believers gather together, since you defend men's authority over Scripture for doctrine.
I would that you could hear the volumes you say speak when I point to the antichrist (against the anointing) teachings of Scofield and his gang. Of paramount importance is God saying He gives apostles and prophets, the foundation upon which the Church is built, and is still giving these functions to His body, "TILL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..." (Eph 4:13) Jesus says, "A disciple, when he is perfect, shall be like his Master." (cp., Mt 10:25, Lk 6:40) Of course, to walk as Jesus walked is seldom offered as a legitimate aspiration to children and beginners in the faith, to any one, really. They usually need dealings of God to deliver them from the Satanic bondages men who resist the Holy Ghost have placed upon them. No gifts of the Spirit, the ministries are not for today, and neither is His Word revered: this is the lying doctrine of racial dispensationalism. Well, I'll tell you, you will be surprised by the precious hidden saints who walk obedient to Lord. They will be revealed walking even as He walked. This world belongs to Christ Jesus and those prepared to rule by His Spirit, liberating, enlightening, enriching, healing and comforting those they pass by.
Racial dispensationalists dump more than Scripture into the pot with the un-biblical label "Rapture." Not all put the same verses in there either. It is not capable of being adjusted to God's Word since it is a term foreign to the words God chose to make His revelation known. If we would discuss the Scripture passages you enumerated, or terms in them, we would be dealing with what God has said. As earlier explained, this is an ideal example of how people are deceived by using words of men's tradition rather than Words of God's revelation. I beg for the honor due God by putting His Word before that of men. His choices of words was excellent. He also chose not to say certain things bandied about as true by many refusing to submit to His vocabulary, preferring rather the traditions of men.
The "Blessed Hope" to which you refer is not "The Rapture." This is obvious due to the fact that word is not in the Scripture. The Biblical "Blessed Hope" is bodily resurrection from the dead and translation of our physical bodies of humiliation into bodies like Jesus' body of glory. Death in all its forms will be abolished is God's sure word.
The exit-resurrection of the church IS the rapture.
Titus 2:13 ''looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (the rapture or exit resurrection of the church); 14) who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us (a reference to the redemption of the body-the rapture-resurrection) from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession (a reference to the church-the body of Christ)
Quote:
There is no statement in the Bible of any "exit of the Church." The Church is the channel of God's blessing to the world. The Church is at the center of God's plan for the transition into the milennium.
The church is in heaven-'called the bride of Christ,' the last seven years remaining to Israel-the Tribulation is occurring on the earth, then Christ returns with His bride-the church, and brings in the Kingdom-age. Otherwise known as the Millennium.
Quote:
The Church is not going to disappear as the devil might prefer. Even though many practice disappearing by sitting in the pew as passive recipients rather than active participants will not confirm any disappearing Church. Again, some poison stirred into the "Rapture" pot. "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." The appearance of the Head does not mean the disappearance of the body. The devil is not going to take over planet earth, the saints of God are going to enter into His glory and reign with Christ.
I would expect you to also defend the authority of men and their performances rather than every member being led by the Head of the body present in His people by the Holy Ghost when the believers gather together, since you defend men's authority over Scripture for doctrine.
I would that you could hear the volumes you say speak when I point to the antichrist (against the anointing) teachings of Scofield and his gang. Of paramount importance is God saying He gives apostles and prophets, the foundation upon which the Church is built, and is still giving these functions to His body, "TILL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..." (Eph 4:13) Jesus says, "A disciple, when he is perfect, shall be like his Master." (cp., Mt 10:25, Lk 6:40) Of course, to walk as Jesus walked is seldom offered as a legitimate aspiration to children and beginners in the faith, to any one, really. They usually need dealings of God to deliver them from the Satanic bondages men who resist the Holy Ghost have placed upon them. No gifts of the Spirit, the ministries are not for today, and neither is His Word revered: this is the lying doctrine of racial dispensationalism. Well, I'll tell you, you will be surprised by the precious hidden saints who walk obedient to Lord. They will be revealed walking even as He walked. This world belongs to Christ Jesus and those prepared to rule by His Spirit, liberating, enlightening, enriching, healing and comforting those they pass by.
All the passages given by me show that the church is raptured as the terminus of the church-age. The exit-resurrection of the church. If you choose to disregard that fact as do many others, that is your choice.
Feel free to go to this link for the purpose of studying the pertinent details concerning the rapture.
The exit-resurrection of the church IS the rapture.
Titus 2:13 ''looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (the rapture or exit resurrection of the church); 14) who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us (a reference to the redemption of the body-the rapture-resurrection) from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession (a reference to the church-the body of Christ)
Well here we see the only way you can get the word "rapture" into the Bible!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The church is in heaven-'called the bride of Christ,' the last seven years remaining to Israel-the Tribulation is occurring on the earth, then Christ returns with His bride-the church, and brings in the Kingdom-age. Otherwise known as the Millennium.
Still not located "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible yet, have you?! Of course you never will!!! So you might better understand what you have been taught is only to come in the future, and many think it only refers to racial Jews (?!) I hope you read in my llittle following explanation the words of Jesus and the apostles that make, "the kindom of God," "the kindom of heaven," and being, "saved" all refer to the same thing! Then, "change your mind," which is what "repent" means.
"The Kingdom of God 'Now Is and Is Yet To Come' "
To maintain some theories of interpretation it is important to deny the Kingdom of God came forth with the revealing of Christ the many membered man. (cp., 1 Co 12:12) But hear what the Scripture says. In Mt 19:16-30 having "eonian life," (vs.16) and, "entering into life" (vs.17) is "keeping God's precepts;" (vs.17) which, according to what Jesus cited (vss.17-19), means the Ten Commandments. This precedes what Jesus called, "To be perfect," (vs.21) toward which He says to "sell your possessions and give to the poor," (vs.21) and then to "follow Me." (vs.21) Jesus says this is a difficult for the rich and defined all of it as to "be entering into the kingdom of the heavens," (vs.23) focusing on the realm; and, back to back, as meaning the same thing, to "be entering into the kingdom of God," (vs.24) emphasizing the Ruler of that realm. The disciples spoke of all this as being, "Saved!" (vs.25) Then Jesus proceeds to farther unfold the future of this kingdom expressed as judging from thrones of glory with Him in a time called "the renascence" (vs.28) in CLV, "the regeneration" in AV, Hendriksen says, "the restored universe." It may be the "glorified universe," where outwardly " the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab 2:14) and inwardly all is full of the glory of God in manifestation (Ep 4:10).
It seems there is a past, present and future to "the kingdom" indicated in this passage. (Mt 19:16-30) I like what Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible." (vs.26) This very much defines the nature of the kingdom's occurence being of grace, God voluntarily acting on our behalf. It is all about being, "With God!" Notice He also explains how this is being worked out now, that we leave people and things for His sake and the gospel and we get "a hundred-fold" back, as well as "enjoying the allotment of life eonian," (vs.29) which is explained as knowing God and Jesus Christ Whom He commissions, (cp., Jo 17:3) It also seems clear to me from this passage that it would be erroneous to say the kingdom is only outward and future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
All the passages given by me show that the church is raptured as the terminus of the church-age. The exit-resurrection of the church. If you choose to disregard that fact as do many others, that is your choice.
There is no "terminus of the Church-age" as you have learned from other men to say. It is absolutely NOT in the Bible. God's wife is as permanent as He is. The last word in the Bible is spoken by her. She is the apple of His eye and the Ambassador Extrordinaire of God's kingdom here now and yet to come. We are the flesh of God in the earth. (Eph 5) You are held in bondage to rank racism with your falsely determined Jewish Israel and gentile Church. That racism rebuilds the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile which was torn down in the flesh of Christ. " For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us..." (Eph 2:14)
When you say "the church is raptured," and "the exit-resurrection of the church," I assume you refer to that part of "Rapture" teaching that racially gentile (of the nations) believers will suddenly disappear at any moment. None of this particular piece of kaka is anywhere written in Scripture. What happens to these people when they disappear, where they go, is another example of how it all depends on which stream of tradition or what spokesman you ask, because it varies here and there, not being something with occurrences you can look up in the Bible to find out what it means.
If I'm 51% racially descended from Abraham will I be "left behind?"
Charles Trumbull’s book “The Life Story of C. I. Scofield” told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield’s “The Incredible Scofield and His Book” (1988) and David Lutzweiler’s “DispenSinsationalism: C. I. Scofield’s Life and Errors” (2006), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred “D.D.” etc. etc.! He was divorced by his wife for failure to support his family while he galavanted about, for one period in Europe on goodly funds donated to him.
Google the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site and read “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” for an eye-opener! This doctrine has long been a money machine worked by guileful and greedy professional religionists.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 11-01-2009 at 12:36 AM..
Well here we see the only way you can get the word "rapture" into the Bible!
Still not located "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible yet, have you?! Of course you never will!!! So you might better understand what you have been taught is only to come in the future, and many think it only refers to racial Jews (?!) I hope you read in my llittle following explanation the words of Jesus and the apostles that make, "the kindom of God," "the kindom of heaven," and being, "saved" all refer to the same thing! Then, "change your mind," which is what "repent" means.
"The Kingdom of God 'Now Is and Is Yet To Come' "
To maintain some theories of interpretation it is important to deny the Kingdom of God came forth with the revealing of Christ the many membered man. (cp., 1 Co 12:12) But hear what the Scripture says. In Mt 19:16-30 having "eonian life," (vs.16) and, "entering into life" (vs.17) is "keeping God's precepts;" (vs.17) which, according to what Jesus cited (vss.17-19), means the Ten Commandments. This precedes what Jesus called, "To be perfect," (vs.21) toward which He says to "sell your possessions and give to the poor," (vs.21) and then to "follow Me." (vs.21) Jesus says this is a difficult for the rich and defined all of it as to "be entering into the kingdom of the heavens," (vs.23) focusing on the realm; and, back to back, as meaning the same thing, to "be entering into the kingdom of God," (vs.24) emphasizing the Ruler of that realm. The disciples spoke of all this as being, "Saved!" (vs.25) Then Jesus proceeds to farther unfold the future of this kingdom expressed as judging from thrones of glory with Him in a time called "the renascence" (vs.28) in CLV, "the regeneration" in AV, Hendriksen says, "the restored universe." It may be the "glorified universe," where outwardly " the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab 2:14) and inwardly all is full of the glory of God in manifestation (Ep 4:10).
It seems there is a past, present and future to "the kingdom" indicated in this passage. (Mt 19:16-30) I like what Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible." (vs.26) This very much defines the nature of the kingdom's occurence being of grace, God voluntarily acting on our behalf. It is all about being, "With God!" Notice He also explains how this is being worked out now, that we leave people and things for His sake and the gospel and we get "a hundred-fold" back, as well as "enjoying the allotment of life eonian," (vs.29) which is explained as knowing God and Jesus Christ Whom He commissions, (cp., Jo 17:3) It also seems clear to me from this passage that it would be erroneous to say the kingdom is only outward and future.
There is no "terminus of the Church-age" as you have learned from other men to say. It is absolutely NOT in the Bible. God's wife is as permanent as He is. The last word in the Bible is spoken by her. She is the apple of His eye and the Ambassador Extrordinaire of God's kingdom here now and yet to come. We are the flesh of God in the earth. (Eph 5) You are held in bondage to rank racism with your falsely determined Jewish Israel and gentile Church. That racism rebuilds the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile which was torn down in the flesh of Christ. " For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us..." (Eph 2:14)
When you say "the church is raptured," and "the exit-resurrection of the church," I assume you refer to that part of "Rapture" teaching that racially gentile (of the nations) believers will suddenly disappear at any moment. None of this particular piece of kaka is anywhere written in Scripture. What happens to these people when they disappear, where they go, is another example of how it all depends on which stream of tradition or what spokesman you ask, because it varies here and there, not being something with occurrences you can look up in the Bible to find out what it means.
If I'm 51% racially descended from Abraham will I be "left behind?"
Charles Trumbull’s book “The Life Story of C. I. Scofield” told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield’s “The Incredible Scofield and His Book” (1988) and David Lutzweiler’s “DispenSinsationalism: C. I. Scofield’s Life and Errors” (2006), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred “D.D.” etc. etc.! He was divorced by his wife for failure to support his family while he galavanted about, for one period in Europe on goodly funds donated to him.
Google the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site and read “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” for an eye-opener! This doctrine has long been a money machine worked by guileful and greedy professional religionists.
You should educate yourself concerning the unconditional and eternal covenants to Israel. 1) Abrahamic 2) Palestinian 3) Davidic 4) New Covenant to Israel which goes into effect at the second advent of Christ.
You should look to the Bible itself for the evidence of its dispensational nature. It is abundant. See my thread on dispensationalism. Educate yourself on why the church is to be raptured prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.
Educate yourself about the theology involved concerning the separate dealings of God with the church and Israel.
There is much you need to learn. Or you can choose to reject the accurate teaching of the Scriptures and continue to believe as you do. It's your choice.
The "church" is the family of Abraham and we have received the blessings of Abraham through Christ Jesus.
God did not plant a new family tree but grafted Gentiles into the original family tree.[Romans chapter 11] The church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles.
The problem with dispensational interpretations are that they "seperate the church" from Israel.
I think Paul makes it pretty clear in Romans 11 that the Lord is going to graft the natural-cultivated branches[Israel] back into the original family tree when He is finished grafting Gentiles into the same family tree. The same Tree.
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