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Your hostility toward the pre-tribulational rapture, which is clearly taught in the Bible, is obvious, as is your ignorance of it. The word of God is always under attack from those such as yourself. It is the objective of Satan to cause confusion and sow discord among believers in Christ.
Rapture: 1 Thess 4:13-17; John 14:1-3; I Cor 15:51-53; Phil 3:21
Second Advent: Matthew 24:29,30; Rev 19:11-16; Zech. 14:3-7
The contrast between the two events is obvious, except to those who will not see.
The church is in Heaven during the Tribulation. The bride (church) is shown in Heaven in Revelation. 19:7,8.
At the rapture, believers are taken from the earth. 1 Thess. 4:16-18
At the Second Advent, it is unbelievers that are taken off the earth. Matthew 24:37-43.
The simple fact of the matter is that, despite the scripture that clearly delineates between the pre-Tribulational rapture or resurrection of the Church, and the Second Advent of Christ, where the Church returns with Christ, there are always going to be those who deny it, who deregard it, who are hostile toward it. Such as in your case, in which you carry your argument with the church over to the Bible.
The truth concerning the pre-Tribulational nature of the rapture is not nullified by those who deny it. It is simply denied. Therefore, carry on in your denial. It changes nothng.
Gideon said,
Let’s assume the pre-tribulation rapture is false teaching or heresy as scripture teaches it is. What will you do then? Now there cannot be two rights here; one or the other is wrong. The one that is wrong is simply heresy. The one that is wrong is simply wrong, that being a pre-tribulation rapture. I have asked you to show us in the thread I have started, The Blessed Hope of the Believers, where you see a pre-tribulation rapture in I Thes 4, as you have stated it was there; yet you have not done so. Now you claim as all pre-tribulationists that it is there. I tell you that the doctrine you cling to is church tradition, and nothing more. There is not a bit of substance to it in scripture. It is wishful thinking by people whom either are ignorant of the facts in scripture or they are hardened by its tradition.
Mike555 hostility is a very exclusive word that does not fit the character of my presentation. As a reminder, I have requested from you on several ocasions to show us in the thred below, where you see a pre-tribulational rapture in I Thes 4. Yet, though you have claim it was there twice in thread posts #'s 33 and 37 you have failed grossly. As a matter of fact you made no attempt at all. Now if you choose to do so, please do it in your words, using scripture. I abhor when pre-tribulationist can not explain things in their own words; this tells me they are monkey see monkey doers. Please not cutting and pasting. Let's here your explanation of where you see the pre-tribulation rapture in I Thes 4, please?
Here is the true meaning of I Thessalonians 4 if you care to know. Mike I tell you there is not pretribulation rapture here at all, as you claim so.
Gideon said, The flop-ups pre-tribulationists make here are very obvious. The fact that few recognize this leads us to conclude, not many have studied the second coming. They have settled to be spoon fed lies. Adolph Hitler said, "If you tell someone a lie long enough, they will believe it to be true." This is precisely what Darbyism has accomplished in our churches. Very few pastors know of the truth concerning the post-tribulation return of Christ. They have chosen to take the easy way out by clinging to pre-tribulationism. Most pastors and missionaries would not dare say they believe post-tribulationism is true, as this would have them expelled from their Fundamentalists movements. They are counting on their retirements, so they settle for watered down, vain traditions of man, which God refers to as damnable heresies. If missionaries did this, claimed post-tribulationism as truth, they would be expelled from their mission boards. Now remember, Darby is the father of Fundamentalism, as so may Scofield be considered as one also. So in a sense, they are Darby, and Scofield worshipers. They have chosen to accept error without investigating truth. I would rather be at home typing truth, than to be on a mission field or in a church preaching error concerning the coming of Christ. Jesus does not come to take the church away from the horrors of Satan or before the tribulation begins; this conceptual thought we have proven goes against church history, tradition, and doctrine as recorded in God's Words. We have also noticed it is an escapist attitude that is seated deep in the fallen hearts of man, planted by Satan. He, Christ, God, comes after the workings of Satan, at the end of the Great Tribulation. That is why it is called the Great Tribulation. Throughout Revelation we see an exponential amount of saints being killed for their faith, and for not accepting the mark of the Beast in their right hands or foreheads. It is a time of purification for the church; where the trying of her faith, purges her as gold. The trials, tribulations, persecutions, and troubles she is to experience will build her faith greatly, as never seen before. As we viewed earlier these trouble will continue until the revelation or apokolypcia or our Lord, at the end of the GT. We see that God does not let us rest from tribulation until Jesus is revealed in fire, with His mighty angels, at the end of the GT. So sorry to break the news to you; we can expect to suffer until Jesus comes at the end of the GT. Ok, now we can go on to cover the next portion of this study, I Thessalonians 4:13-18.
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubledrest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, This is when the rest is realized, not seven years earlier in a secret, mysterious, hidden, no one knows about coming that is not found anywhere in scripture. It is realized seven years later, at the end ofthe GT, when Jesus is revealed in fire; there is nothing secret about that as we said earlier.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Gideon said,
Now we can cover these two verses. Apparently either the church was inquisitive about the dead in Christ and what would happen to them when Jesus would return or Paul just wanted to inform us of what would happen. So the main emphasis is the dead in Christ returning with Christ when he comes back to earth. I would challenge anyone to show us a pre-tribulational rapture here. This is an impossible task, as it is not there, as the pre-tribulation camps vehemently claim it is. Now remember, there is a danger in claiming this error as seen in II Thes 2; it is dangerous to have pleasure in unrighteousness or in error concerning the second coming. Paul further tells us and comforts us to not have any concern for our dead loved ones in Christ. They are not as those that have no hope, as their hope is in Christ.
Verse 14 begins to bring all this together. Paul tells us, "Hey if you believe Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring back with Him. Notice Paul says nothing about taking them away, but rather he tells us God the Son will bring them back with Himself. Wither so ever Jesus goes they are with Him. As he returns to earth, in order to establish his Kingship he brings all the dead saints back with him, from Adam to the last Martyr in Revelation. We see that clearly in Revelation 11, 19, 20 etc. Yet pre-tribulationist claim these wordsbring with Him, mean Jesus is going to fly them away. That is very inaccurate as we will see.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleeps in Jesus will God bring with him.
Notice the only ones Jesus brings anywhere are the dead not the living on earth. He brings them with himself from heaven so they can be resurrected from the dead. The word bring in the Greek is"ago"; it means to lead, carry, lead along, bring. So Jesus is bringing them not taking as pre-tribulationism claim falsely again. They further even claim he is bringing us all to heaven, the living saints on earth and the dead ones currently in Heaven. This is so inaccurate; it could not be more inaccurate.
Take note how Paul begins verse 14, with the death and resurrection of Christ. This is the pattern that the dead in Christ shall follow also. They return with Him, as he "Brings them with" in order for them to receive their dead bodies resurrected when Christ is glorified in His saints at his return. We will see that very clearly also.
Thus far Paul tells us not to worry about the dead in Christ; God, Christ will bring them with Him at his returns. We know since they come with Him they are in Heaven, and there is much scripture to back that. He reminds us ofthe power ofthe resurrection in Christ. We have also learned that pre-tribulationists misrepresent the word "bring" grossly, and present it in opposite fahion of its true meaning, with the word "'take away" instead, thus falsely claiming Jesus is to take them away to heaven. There is no taking anywhere in this chapter at all. Neither is there a secret hidden second coming of Jesus that occurs at the beginning ofthe Tribulation or anytime after the Ascention as they falsely proclaim loudly that Jesus could have returned anytime, unexpectedly after the Ascention. Now let's carry on to the next verses.
Gideon said, This we are telling you by God's word and authority, the living saints present on earth, remaining until Jesus returns, will not prevent the dead saints in any way. Remember Paul told us of the death and resurrection of Christ; now he brings it to their personal level. We see Jesus descends with the voice ofthe Archangel, a Loud Shout, and the Trumpet of God, the last trumpet of revelation as Paul has previously given us the remainder of the details in other verses as these. John, Jesus, and many others have also given more detail of this single event. Remember, God gives us different details of the same event throughout scripture, by other scriptures and varying personalities to shed all the details he wanted us to realize about a single event.
Notice Jesus is descending down to earth. We are caught up to meet him at His descent. The scriptures read the Lord shall descend. There is zero indication here that Jesus comes secretly, without notice to steal the church away to heaven, in order for them to escape persecution. There is zero detail given of any ascent as pretibulationism falsely claims there is. It is evident that He proceeds in a downward motion, with a shout, the voice ofthe archangel, and the last trumpet of Revelation. This all occurs at the end ofthe GT, not seven years earlier as pre-tribulationists falsely proclaim, loudly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and thedead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
We see the same event in Revelation 11, 19, 20 etc.
HERE it is in Revelation 11 again
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,and the time ofthe dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
15For this we say unto you by the word ofthe Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming ofthe Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice ofthe archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
We will save verse 17 for last, as it is the best one that proves Jesus comes down to earth with the Greek word apentesis. I forgot to mention the word coming here is Parousia or arrival. So it is the same event we see in II Thes 1 and 2. We will see that very clearly in verse 15 the coming is "Parousia".
Now we can bring this section to a conclusion with verse 17. This is exactly the same event we see in Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, II Thes 2, Revelation 10, 11, 19, 1, 20 etc. All the accounts are given to shed various details of the same event. Notice II Thes 2 mentions our gathering together unto him at his coming, arrival or Parousia. We see the same event described in a like fashion in I Thes 4. The pre-tribulationists claim they are two separated events, taking place at least seven years apart. We see nothing in scripture to demonstrate both are separate events; scripture only proves them to be one. Not only does the terminology prove them to be one event but the words also disprove any secret or hidden coming, and the words disprove Christ taking the church away. Finally the words disprove we fly away anywhere. Verse 17 proves these facts even further. Notice we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, as he descends. The word meet, is apentesis; it is no coincidence that Paul used this word here. Paul added this concept with its historical meaning. What this word means is as a dignitary paid his official visit to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens going out to meet the dignitary at his parousia, and escorting him in the remaining part or final stage of his Journey was referred to as the apentesis. So as they saw the dignitary arriving at his parousia, they went out to meet him and greet him, then the citizens would proceed to escort him in to the city. The same word is used here. As Jesus descends, we meet or apentesis him in the air in order to escort him down to earth. This is precisely what is recorded by Paul in scripture. We clearly do not fly away as the pre-tribulation dogma has eroneously claimed; we meet Him the in air, in order to continue His descent with Him down to earth. There is nothing in scripture or this passage to disprove what Paul has clearly stated.
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17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet "apentesis"the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. We meet Jesus in order to escort him on the rest of his journey or descent down to earth, where his reign will commence with us in our immortal state.
feet; Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows. Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-18-2009 at 07:12 PM..
Let’s assume the pre-tribulation rapture is false teaching or heresy as scripture teaches it is. What will you do then? Now there cannot be two rights here; one or the other is wrong. The one that is wrong is simply heresy. The one that is wrong is simply wrong, that being a pre-tribulation rapture. I have asked you to show us in the thread I have started, The Blessed Hope of the Believers, where you see a pre-tribulation rapture in I Thes 4, as you have stated it was there; yet you have not done so. Now you claim as all pre-tribulationists that it is there. I tell you that the doctrine you cling to is church tradition, and nothing more. There is not a bit of substance to it in scripture. It is wishful thinking by people whom either are ignorant of the facts in scripture or they are hardened by its tradition.
Mike555 hostility is a very exclusive word that does not fit the character of my presentation. As a reminder, I have requested from you on several ocasions to show us in the thred below, where you see a pre-tribulational rapture in I Thes 4. Yet, though you have claim it was there twice in thread posts #'s 33 and 37 you have failed grossly. As a matter of fact you made no attempt at all. Now if you choose to do so, please do it in your words, using scripture. I abhor when pre-tribulationist can not explain things in their own words; this tells me they are monkey see monkey doers. Please not cutting and pasting. Let's here your explanation of where you see the pre-tribulation rapture in I Thes 4, please?
Fella, I don't give a flying fig newton what you abhor. Revelation 19:7 shows the church-the bride, in Heaven during the Tribulation, and in Revelation 19:11 Christ is getting ready to make His return to the earth to put an end to the Tribulation. And the church returns with Him. I have given the scripture verses in other posts. Now that means that the church was previously raptured. Your denials, and your hostility toward the pre-Tribulational rapture are of no concern to me. The Scriptures are clear about the rapture. There are many like yourself who refuse to accept it. There are those who have the sense to recognize the truth concerning its revelation in the Scriptures. Now take your Gideon says this, and Gideon says that, and Gideon on out of here. Gitty up!!!
Fella, I don't give a flying fig newton what you abhor. Revelation 19:7 shows the church-the bride, in Heaven during the Tribulation, and in Revelation 19:11 Christ is getting ready to make His return to the earth to put an end to the Tribulation. And the church returns with Him. I have given the scripture verses in other posts. Now that means that the church was previously raptured. Your denials, and your hostility toward the pre-Tribulational rapture are of no concern to me. The Scriptures are clear about the rapture. There are many like yourself who refuse to accept it. There are those who have the sense to recognize the truth concerning its revelation in the Scriptures. Now take your Gideon says this, and Gideon says that, and Gideon on out of here. Gitty up!!!
Gideon said wrong again, the word "is" is present tense; incase you are not aware. This means the wedding is here, arriving, and has not taken place seven years earlier as you and pre-tribulationists suggest. If you do not see that, I would be concerned. It is about to commence. Further, Revelation 19 takes place after the destruction of Babylon, which takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation. To add to it, Christ revelation occurs with the armies of heaven following, these are dead saints, angels, horses and chariots of fire and other unimaginalble hosts. These saints are the ones Jesus brings with Him in I Thes 4. So this leaves you confused still.
With all that being said, quit trying to dodge the bullet. Show us where you see a pretribulation rapture in I Thes 4, as you stated twice. You still cannot do so, nor will you ever be able to, because it is not there.
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
The tribulation comes to an end with the Judgement of the *****, now the living and dead saint rejoice over her destruction.
3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
The wedding is come not has occured, and it is about to occur as Christ returns to earth, with all the dead saints of the ages. THey come to get their bodies back from the dead; the living on earth will be translated to His likeness. Notice the bride has made herself ready for the wedding that is very obviously about to commence. Hence it has not taken place as you suggest. Nor has it taken place seven years earlier as you suggest. It is mentioned here at the end of the Great Tribulation, because it is present tense, about to unfold. The wedding is the church being immortalized to join her Christ. This includes all OT saints too, btw. They all shall be kings and priests unto our God and shall reign with Him 1000 years.
This clearly marks the end of the GT. The bride and groom have made themselves ready for the wedding which is here and about to unfold. The clearly is at the end of the GT. Yet you claim this is seven years earlier and is a pre-trib rapture. Anyone with any spiritual sense or brain knows the Bablonoian ***** gets judged at the end of the GT.
Daniel 7: 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Jesus coming back for his second and only second coming.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus takes over the kingdoms of earth and rules and we see in revelation 19.
15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
The kingdoms of earth are here before Christ rules, first.
17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
The final kingdom, makes all out war with the saints during the tribulation and kills many by beheading.
21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
The beast will prevail against them; no rapture here. He prevails by killing them. Jesus is still in heaven.
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Here is where the wedding takes place as in Revelation 19. Christ also takes possession of the kingdom and immortalizes his saints to his likeness so we can reign with him.
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Here daniel repeats in more detail what he just said above.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
The detail he give now is the antichrist will persecute us for 3.5 years.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
The saints will judge the world for their wickedness when Christ returns, so they even participate in it. So we help Jesus fight Satan, when christ returns from heaven for us.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
The kingdom shall be everlasting. 28Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
Gideon said wrong again, the word "is" is present tense; incase you are not aware. This means the wedding is here, arriving, and has not taken place seven years earlier as you and pre-tribulationists suggest. If you do not see that, I would be concerned. It is about to commence. Further, Revelation 19 takes place after the destruction of Babylon, which takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation. To add to it, Christ revelation occurs with the armies of heaven following, these are dead saints, angels, horses and chariots of fire and other unimaginalble hosts. These saints are the ones Jesus brings with Him in I Thes 4. So this leaves you confused still.
With all that being said, quit trying to dodge the bullet. Show us where you see a pretribulation rapture in I Thes 4, as you stated twice. You still cannot do so, nor will you ever be able to, because it is not there.
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
The tribulation comes to an end with the Judgement of the *****, now the living and dead saint rejoice over her destruction.
3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
The wedding is come not has occured, and it is about to occur as Christ returns to earth, with all the dead saints of the ages. THey come to get their bodies back from the dead; the living on earth will be translated to His likeness. Notice the bride has made herself ready for the wedding that is very obviously about to commence. Hence it has not taken place as you suggest. Nor has it taken place seven years earlier as you suggest. It is mentioned here at the end of the Great Tribulation, because it is present tense, about to unfold. The wedding is the church being immortalized to join her Christ. This includes all OT saints too, btw. They all shall be kings and priests unto our God and shall reign with Him 1000 years.
This clearly marks the end of the GT. The bride and groom have made themselves ready for the wedding which is here and about to unfold. The clearly is at the end of the GT. Yet you claim this is seven years earlier and is a pre-trib rapture. Anyone with any spiritual sense or brain knows the Bablonoian ***** gets judged at the end of the GT.
Daniel 7: 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Jesus coming back for his second and only second coming.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus takes over the kingdoms of earth and rules and we see in revelation 19.
15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
The kingdoms of earth are here before Christ rules, first.
17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
The final kingdom, makes all out war with the saints during the tribulation and kills many by beheading.
21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
The beast will prevail against them; no rapture here. He prevails by killing them. Jesus is still in heaven.
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Here is where the wedding takes place as in Revelation 19. Christ also takes possession of the kingdom and immortalizes his saints to his likeness so we can reign with him.
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Here daniel repeats in more detail what he just said above.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
The detail he give now is the antichrist will persecute us for 3.5 years.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
The saints will judge the world for their wickedness when Christ returns, so they even participate in it. So we help Jesus fight Satan, when christ returns from heaven for us.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
The kingdom shall be everlasting. 28Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
We do not even see a pretribulation rapture or wedding in the OT.
No bullets being dodged here. I have given you the facts. The church is in Heaven during the Tribulation, and it got there via the rapture. The marriage takes place in Heaven and the wedding supper takes place on earth after Christ returns. The fact that you don't see the rapture in either 1 Thess. 4:13-17, or in John 14:1-3, shows your bias against the rapture. Your denials mean nothing. Rant and rave all you want. It doesn't affect the truth. You already have the scriptures that I presented. If you refuse to accept them, that is because you reject the truth. Now, since you detest the writings of other people so much, detest this, and then go have a cookie.
No bullets being dodged here. I have given you the facts. The church is in Heaven during the Tribulation, and it got there via the rapture. The marriage takes place in Heaven and the wedding supper takes place on earth after Christ returns. The fact that you don't see the rapture in either 1 Thess. 4:13-17, or in John 14:1-3, shows your bias against the rapture. Your denials mean nothing. Rant and rave all you want. It doesn't affect the truth. You already have the scriptures that I presented. If you refuse to accept them, that is because you reject the truth. Now, since you detest the writings of other people so much, detest this, and then go have a cookie.
People, everything you need to know about the rapture can be found at this link. And you either get it or you don't.
Gideon said,
You have given no facts at all. All you have done is posted a bunch of verses and references from other authors. As I said before most pretribers, as yourself; dont mean to sound rude, btw, can not expound on a doctrine they claim as truth. All they can do is post a bunch of verses, with many other relating verses, ideals as dispensationalism whch are not only not in scripture bu the scriptures teach the exact oposite of the dispensational presentation, and you rely on foolish writings of others. They foolishly ignore the facts and pay heed to foolish fables. It is obvious you do not know how to do this, as it takes much writings, and translations to arrive at what was presented. Cherry picking verses certainly does not cut it. This does not involve the erroneous methodology you utilize. Cuts and pastes is all you see from them. They can not write or explain the so called truths, which are not true btw, inwhich they claim to believe. They rely on others to spoon feed them doctrinal truths. Do you not see that as a problem? The problem lies in the fact that you can not transliterate I Thes 4 as you claimed the pre-tribulation rapture is there. The fact still remains, you would not begin to know how to explain where you see a pre-tribulational, second coming of Christ in I Thes 4, because it is not there. You are in error. Admit it. I gave you a word for word transliteration of what Paul literally has written, yet you call the apostle Paul a liar in denying written truths. Hey what was written is what God's word says, check it out for yourself. There is no pretribulation rapture it is a fantacy of error and deceit; a heredical state of tradition most churches are trapped in, due to pride. They carry an attitude of Jesus can't do that to me. He is going to fly me away, because so and so said. My pastor even beleives it; he must be right, hogwash.
The fact remains, you still do not know the meaning of the word "is" in the English. Nor do you understand that the bride has made her self ready for a wedding that has not occured. Let's all ask ourselves, how could she, "the bride" make herself ready for a wedding that has already happened seven years earlier as you suggest? Why would she make herself ready if she got married seven years earlier? Why is the word "is" present tense used to describe the wedding is here now. Furthernore, why do we see the sainst rising to receive rewards in Revelation 11 and 20 after the GT ends? I know you can not answer any of these questions logically, because you do not understand that .You make absolutely no sense as all pre-tribbers alike that foolishly try to debate this subject matter.
Presenting scripture is not enough, though anyone with English sense can see the reality of what is there. Expounding on the literal verbal plenary meanings even brings it more to light. So unless you want to expunge, which you can't because you will not arrive at the meanings you desire if you do, than your efforts are shallow, vain, and meaningless. Your explanations must have depth, reason, and a truthful impact that is arrived by breaking the meanings of the Greek terminologies. Otherwise you present a weak and futile argument, as you do.
So I still would love to see you present an expostion of the pre-tribulation rapture in I Thes 4, as you still claim foolishly it is there.
Now remember to do this you must translate many words, admit Christ is in a descending motion as he returns, and that he brings the dead alone with him. You must further admit that the meeting in the air is an apentesis.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-18-2009 at 10:23 PM..
Gideon said,
You have given no facts at all. All you have done is posted a bunch of verses and references from other authors. As I said before most pretribers, as yourself; dont mean to sound rude, btw, can not expound on a doctrine they claim as truth. All they can do is post a bunch of verses, with many other relating verses, ideals as dispensationalism whch are not even in scripture, and writings of others. They foolishly ignore the facts and pay heed to foolish fables. It is obvious you do not know how to do this, as it takes much writings, and translations to arrive at what was presented. Cherry picking verses certainly does not cut it. This does not involve the erroneous methodology you utilize. Cuts and pastes is all you see from them. They can not write or explain the so called truths, which are not true btw, inwhich they claim to believe. They rely on others to spoon feed them doctrinal truths. Do you not see that as a problem? The problem lies in the fact that you can not transliterate I Thes 4 as you claimed the pre-tribulation rapture is there. The fact still remains, you would not begin to know how to explain where you see a pre-tribulational, second coming of Christ in I Thes 4, because it is not there. You are in error. Admit it. I gave you a word for word transliteration of what Paul literally has written, yet you call the apostle Paul a liar in denying written truths. Hey what was written is what God's word says, check it out for yourself. There is no pretribulation rapture it is a fantacy of error and deceit; a heredical state of tradition most churches are trapped in, due to pride. They carry an attitude of Jesus can't do that to me. He is going to fly me away, because so and so said. My pastor even beleives it; he must be right, hogwash.
The fact remains, you still do not know the meaning of the word is. Nor do you understand that the bride has made her self ready for a wedding that has not occured. Let's all ask ourselves, how could she, "the bride" make herself ready for a wedding that has already happened seven years earlier as you suggest? Why would she make herself ready if she got married seven years earlier? Why is the word "is" present tense be used to describe the wedding is here now. Furthernore, why do we see the sainst rising to receive rewards in Revelation 11 and 20 after the GT ends? I know you can not answer any of these questions logically, because you do not understand that .You make absolutely no sense as all pre-tribbers alike that foolishly try to debate this subject matter.
Presenting scripture is not enough, though anyone with English sense can see the reality of what is there. Expounding on the literal verbal plenary meanings even brings it more to light. So unless you want to expunge, which you can't because you will not arrive at the meanings you desire if you do, than your efforts are shallow, vain, and meaningless. Your explanations must have depth, reason, and a truthful impact that is arrived by breaking the meanings of the Greek terminologies. Otherwise you present a weak and futile argument, as you do.
Throw out your 33 years of research or however long you said it was, and start over. You have gone down the wrong path. You will not listen to the truth and have not even bothered to go into the link I provided. I think I recall that you ran down Scofield, if I'm not mistaken. You probably run down Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, as well. This makes you someone not even worth wasting time on. If you want to know why I hold my views on the pretribulational rapture, then study their works.
Throw out your 33 years of research or however long you said it was, and start over. You have gone down the wrong path. You will not listen to the truth and have not even bothered to go into the link I provided. I think I recall that you ran down Scofield, if I'm not mistaken. You probably run down Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, as well. This makes you someone not even worth wasting time on. If you want to know why I hold my views on the pretribulational rapture, then study their works.
Gideon said, Scofield was a bumb, that defrauded his own mother; he never paid child support to a wife children, whom he left in diar straits and finally, he was jailed for fraud. Do you want me to tell you more about this creep.. Come on, learn some history. Scofield never even paid his mom back after he made a fortune off of a false doctrine he presented in the Scofield Bible, which he sold millions of. Do you know what that doctrine was, pre-tribulationism? As I said before they worship Scofield and Darby. It is quite evident here. I said it in the early eighties, and it is a fact, Fundamentalism is going to crumble as a whole. All that will be left are a few faithfull followers of Christ. Most of the leaders will most likely face the wrath of God, lest they repent of their errors. It is quite EXTREMELY obvious in the quotes I have quoted your words in, that you follow man and could care less what God says. Your exposition validates that claim as you have not exposition. Who cares what these men in error have to say? I don't. What sayeth the scriptures?
As I stated, you rely on the foolish works of others, as do all pre-tribulationists. You have even admitted it in your own words.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-18-2009 at 10:41 PM..
Gideon said, Scofield was a bumb, that defrauded his own mother; he never paid child support to a wife children, whom he left in diar straits and finally, he was jailed for fraud. Do you want me to tell you more about this creep.. Come on, learn some history. Scofield never even paid his mom back after he made a fortune off of a false doctrine he presented in the Scofield Bible, which he sold millions of. Do you know what that doctrine was, pre-tribulationism? As I said before they worship Scofield and Darby. It is quite evident here. I said it in the early eighties, and it is a fact, Fundamentalism is going to crumble as a whole. All that will be left are a few faithfull followers of Christ. Most of the leaders will most likely face the wrath of God, lest they repent of their errors. It is quite EXTREMELY obvious in the quotes I have quoted your words in, that you follow man and could care less what God says. Your exposition validates that claim as you have not exposition. Who cares what these men in error have to say? I don't. What sayeth the scriptures?
As I stated, you rely on the foolish works of others, as do all pre-tribulationists. You have even admitted it in your own words.
See. I said you were hostile. Didn't I say you were hostile? You are soooo hostile. I really recommend you go have a cookie. Chips Ahoy are good. Oreos will work too. But my recommendation would be to go with the Chips Ahoy.
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