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Gideon said,
Here is plenty of evidence to completely debunk the pre-tribulation rapture fairytale. The evidence will grow exponentially. The scriptures not only do not support it, but as we will discover, they completely condemn the thought and warn us against such ideology. This is precisely what the pretribulation rapture is ideology.
The ideology was created for two different reasons: first off to bring profits to Scofield and Darby primarily, secondly to carry out the well orchestrated plan of the illuminist or globalist. Darby and Scofield were hideous false profits.
Gideon said,
Here is plenty of evidence to completely debunk the pre-tribulation rapture fairytale. The evidence will grow exponentially. The scriptures not only do not support it, but as we will discover, they completely condemn the thought and warn us against such ideology. This is precisely what the pretribulation rapture is ideology.
The ideology was created for two different reasons: first off to bring profits to Scofield and Darby primarily, secondly to carry out the well orchestrated plan of the illuminist or globalist. Darby and Scofield were hideous false profits.
Where in the Bible is there anything about any "church age." Certainly the Eclessia as wife of the Lamb, "The Divine Consort" if you will, is never coming to an end. Ecclessia is the body sitting on the throne. You accept these words and phrases from men though there is no occurences of them in the Bible. None!
"Eminent" means outstanding, distinguished. "Immanent" means existing or remaining within; inherent. The latter is used to mean "to occur at any moment" by racial dispensationalists to attach to whatever collection of things in the "Rapture" that thier specific sect expects to suddenly without warning to happen. Lets look a little more into it.
It seems a mistake to think our bodies being transfigured like unto His body of glory will happen for everybody all at once (and, not to digress upon here, it is a mistake to think that it is the same thing that happens to all of us, i.e., not only what, but how.) The only scripture I've been able to find that has been used to say this actually doesn't when more closely examined. (In a very real sense, I have no personal investment in how all this takes place. How could I care for anything other than seeking to discover what God reveals about it?) "...we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, IN the last trump..." 1 Cor 15:52 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=1Co+15%3A52 - broken link) 1.) "In an instant," or, "moment" (KJV) in Greek is in atomos, meaning "un-cut," or, "without division or separation." This is the only occurence I've yet found in the N.T.
About 300 years earlier, in classical (not Biblical) Greek, Plato used atomos to refer to what we in scientific terminology call the elements. Anything that was purified by "cutting" out everything mixed with it until there was nothing that could be separated from it any more was an element, such as gold, or sulfur, or iron, etc. In modern times we borrowed the term to apply to the similar "atoms" as in an "atomic" bomb. This is one possible meaning of the word here. The change coming is in the very foundation of our physical nature. The "elements" that make up our body, the very "atomic" structures will undergo a metamorphosis into an immortal body with incorruptible life.
Another consideration is provided in the use of the same word, in a positive rather than negative sense, prefixed with "rightly, or, correctly" as orthotomeo in 2 Tim 2:15 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=2Ti+2%3A15 - broken link) "erect-cut," "erect" meaning "upright," or, "'rightly' dividing" in the phrase "correctly cutting the word of truth." The word of the original Greek (as well as Hebrew) were written in a continuous string of letters. They put no divisions between the words. There was no punctuation. To cause the truth to rise one had to correctly cut it. Think of how this change will occur, with "negative-cutting," or, without interruption. Not only an inward peaceful transition, just taking the next step, a step over a threshold in a long journey leading up to it, without which you couldn't get there; but also, considered outwardly, it may imply that this would happen without the world observing a thing. There will be no discontinuity in the change He's talking about! (This bears some similarity to the next phrase to consider.)
An important thing is that this seems to be the only time this word occurs in the N. T. The word used everywhere else in the Scripture for "instantly, or, immediately" is parachrema, not of the same family. The other phrase is: "in the twinkle of an eye." This is r[h]ipe "the upward or downward motion of the eyelid." The change is in a "blink" of an eye; or, more literally it may be "'toss' of an eye," or, "'glance' of an eye," as when one looks from one place to another. Here is no inward disruption but continuity. The change is in looking from one place to another. It is not an indication of a length of time. We are changed "from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord" as we behold Him. The presence of the Lord occurs by our being brought into beholding Him in increasing glory. You tend to believe what you see. "The Glory" is His manifest presence.
Go into my thread on Dispensations and study the material.
Gideon said,
Here is plenty of evidence to completely debunk the pre-tribulation rapture fairytale. The evidence will grow exponentially. The scriptures not only do not support it, but as we will discover, they completely condemn the thought and warn us against such ideology. This is precisely what the pretribulation rapture is ideology.
The ideology was created for two different reasons: first off to bring profits to Scofield and Darby primarily, secondly to carry out the well orchestrated plan of the illuminist or globalist. Darby and Scofield were hideous false profits.
Go into my thread on Dispensations and study the material.
Other than to refute it, why would I want to do that? Again and again you demonstrate that you do not care if something is written in Scripture or not. It's just not your authority. It matters not to you if something is the word of men and not written in Scripture. I'm a Christian. I keep following Jesus: His written word the best I understand it (knowing it is originally in Hebrew and Greek) and the Spirit He has given in His name. People like you that do not believe what Scripture does or does not say should determine our confession of faith I try to persuade to believe in the Bible. I don't have time to exhume the ideas of those multitudes whose spirit has been overthrown by certain misguided groups of religious thieves, who can only parrot those deceivers words and practices that replace what God gave us in His Word.
God is opening the Book in our days. "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." (1 Co 15:46, AV) What has been called, "The Bible Code," or , Equidistant Letter Sequencing," ELS Code, only one of the codes of which I'm aware, is a natural opening of Scripture. How much more is the Holy Spirit unfolding in the understanding of those holy ones who walk in intimate love with their Lord! Jesus says that those who follow Him, when they are mature will walk as He walked. He said they'd do the works He did and even greater because He went into the Father. You deny both the authority of God's Word and the power of the anointing. Why would you ever imagine I should seek out what you teach?!
Other than to refute it, why would I want to do that? Again and again you demonstrate that you do not care if something is written in Scripture or not. It's just not your authority. It matters not to you if something is the word of men and not written in Scripture. I'm a Christian. I keep following Jesus: His written word the best I understand it (knowing it is originally in Hebrew and Greek) and the Spirit He has given in His name. People like you that do not believe what Scripture does or does not say should determine our confession of faith I try to persuade to believe in the Bible. I don't have time to exhume the ideas of those multitudes whose spirit has been overthrown by certain misguided groups of religious thieves, who can only parrot those deceivers words and practices that replace what God gave us in His Word.
God is opening the Book in our days. "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." (1 Co 15:46, AV) What has been called, "The Bible Code," or , Equidistant Letter Sequencing," ELS Code, only one of the codes of which I'm aware, is a natural opening of Scripture. How much more is the Holy Spirit unfolding in the understanding of those holy ones who walk in intimate love with their Lord! Jesus says that those who follow Him, when they are mature will walk as He walked. He said they'd do the works He did and even greater because He went into the Father. You deny both the authority of God's Word and the power of the anointing. Why would you ever imagine I should seek out what you teach?!
Since you are prejudiced against the Biblical teaching of the pre-tribulational rapture, you will not bother to research it, and simply reject it as the teaching of men. Therefore, you will never come to the truth of the matter. That's your choice.
Since you are prejudiced against the Biblical teaching of the pre-tribulational rapture, you will not bother to research it, and simply reject it as the teaching of men. Therefore, you will never come to the truth of the matter. That's your choice.
Since you cannot seem to remember my post a few previous to this, perhaps that is what is wrong. Does it improve anything to point out I already indicated to you I was raised with that doctrine from earliest childhood? If you bothered to read my posts it would be clear that I actually have studied racial dispensationalism, unlike you and many others who swallow it, hook line and sinker, without bothering to provide actual words of Scripture that say the same thing. Not only studying other views as well, I have searched the Bible on my own concerning many particulars of racial dispensationalism. If you can't say it in the actual words of the Bible, as a Christian man, I am not obligated to believe it.
"...we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, IN the last trump...
I'm beginning to believe that Paul either was talking about things so profound in these so-called "rapture" verses that they are completely incomprehensible to modern sensibilities or he was just full of too much wine when he wrote these things. In either case, they should be totally discarded, as it is a complete waste of time and brain power to try to make sense of them. The pro-rupturites will argue till the end of time that the rupture is literal; the anti-rupturites will argue till the end of time that it is purely symbolic. Duke it out, you guys, till the sky falls--har har!
Last edited by thrillobyte; 11-07-2009 at 11:13 PM..
"...Not all of us will sleep in death; but, all of us will be changed into something else, in the very chemical elements and atomic structures of which our physical bodies consist, in looking away into another realm, and in the sound from God's prepared vessel through which His Spirit will blow (what prophetically was a trumpet in the "Feast of Tabernacles" which in reality is) the anointed word of a ministry which will cause those that hear to partake of the change of our vile bodies into a body like unto Jesus' body of glory..." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, explained)
Since you cannot seem to remember my post a few previous to this, perhaps that is what is wrong. Does it improve anything to point out I already indicated to you I was raised with that doctrine from earliest childhood? If you bothered to read my posts it would be clear that I actually have studied racial dispensationalism, unlike you and many others who swallow it, hook line and sinker, without bothering to provide actual words of Scripture that say the same thing. Not only studying other views as well, I have searched the Bible on my own concerning many particulars of racial dispensationalism. If you can't say it in the actual words of the Bible, as a Christian man, I am not obligated to believe it.
Since we speak English, we generally use English words in communicating. Therefore we use the word 'Rapture' which comes from the Latin word-'RAPTURO', which comes from the Greek word 'harpageEsometha' or 'harpazo,' which means 'shall-be-being-snatched-away'-to seize or to carry off. Or simply, to be 'caught up'.
1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up-'harpageEsometha'-or 'harpazo'- to seize or to carry off'-'raptured' together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Now since I speak English, I prefer to say 'rapture' instead of 'harpageEsometha.' Either way, it refers to the event spoken of in 1 Thess. 4:15. The pre-Tribulational Rapture.
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