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I have a lot of patience and I know this is the internet, and I know that I too am very far from perfect. But I'm wondering how long Latter-day Saint members of this board are expected to calmly put up with the ceaseless barrage of lies and vile insults that come from the keyboard of this in my opinion obviously angry, bigoted, and hate-filled person?? Somehow I thought civility and respect for others even while disagreeing, explaining, and defending one's own position were the norm for communicating on the City Data board...
There, now I've gone and done it, drat, gotta work on that tolerance and perfection bit.
You should see what I get from the atheists. This is a debate forum, and we do not have to think you are right as the atheists do not have to think I am right. And I am not making false accusations against your person, but I am telling what the Word of God states about your religion, and the Bible clearly states that Moroni was the devil -that is, if there was a Moroni and Joe Smith was not lying, which he was known to do; as he was also known to give false prophecies which are documented, but maybe that is hidden from you?
Now FYI, all human beings born in Adam are dead in spirit and the body is dead because of sin, also, and every person born in Adam must be born again in Christ, according to the Word of God, to be alive in the Living Spirit, which Spirit is Christ; and Christ is come in flesh of New Man creation.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin ; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?-Jesus!
I have a lot of patience and I know this is the internet, and I know that I too am very far from perfect. But I'm wondering how long Latter-day Saint members of this board are expected to calmly put up with the ceaseless barrage of lies and vile insults that come from the keyboard of this in my opinion obviously angry, bigoted, and hate-filled person??
And no less should we christians have to tolerate being barraged with arrogant, condescending, intolerance from those who claim to be what they are not.
This is not from God or Christian:
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both,
(Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
Man cannot be redeemed from this spiritual death by an act of Christ alone..
"The Restored Church, Pgs. 562,563“
Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god….” former President and prophet Spencer W. Kimball
"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation " Spencer Kimble - Book of Mormon Student Manual
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christof Latter-day Saints, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670
No true prophet speaks falsely and or has those who apologies for his error.... and yet claims he speaks for or represent God or Christianity
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-21-2009 at 11:40 PM..
They got it wrong, though ancient plates made of gold and bound together like pages in a book were involved. Joseph Smith returned them to the angel who showed him where they were.
It's quite a fascinating story actually. For those who believe in the Bible the appearance of angels should not be difficult to accept...
It's quite a lie, as the solid gold plates would have been impossible for Joe Smith to carry, much less run with them under his arm!
Quote:
http://www.mrm.org/weight-of-plates
Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."
There are fallen angels who do wickedness, and then, there is Satan, the opposer of God [and his hosts], who can transform himself into an angel of light; and then there are demons. Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
There was an official "Declaration" made in September, 1978:
To Whom It May Concern:
On September 30, 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:
In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously.
President Kimball has asked that I now read this letter:
And an official "Proclamation" issued in September, 1995:
The Family: A Proclamation to the World
The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.
The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.
Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. "Children are an heritage of the Lord" (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.
This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Were these "revelations" new? Or merely a clarification of existing scripture. For example, many religions develope or change doctrine over time, but the essential truths do not change.
In my opinion, a "new" revelation would be a radical change. Something not found or even implied in scripture. For example, a clear and indeniable message from God that Jesus was not born of a human woman, but was only spirit.
That would fundamentaly change our religion.
Were these "revelations" new? Or merely a clarification of existing scripture. For example, many religions develope or change doctrine over time, but the essential truths do not change.
In my opinion, a "new" revelation would be a radical change. Something not found or even implied in scripture. For example, a clear and indeniable message from God that Jesus was not born of a human woman, but was only spirit.
That would fundamentaly change our religion.
I don't know why but the Lord withheld the priesthood from certain persons even though they were living worthily for several generations. So for them yes the 1978 revelation from the Lord was a "new" and perhaps "radical" change.
But I think you are perhaps looking for a sign and fail to understand the principle of revelation, which is the "rock" upon which the Lord builds and governs his church. As a husband and father I have the right to (and do) receive revelation/guidance for myself and for my own family, but not for someone else's family. Bishops receive revelation to benefit their own local congregation, but not for other flocks. Sunday School presidents receive revelation to help them with their duties, as do teachers, choristers, etc. And it goes on through all the official callings in the church with only the President of the Church having the right to receive revelation for the entire church in God's orderly way of doing things.
That's why I write often of each individual being able to have a personal relationship with God the Father and Jesus Christ with two-way communication, revelation from God usually received via the Holy Spirit.
It requires sincere and humble daily prayer, living as best you can with speedy repentance and forsaking of sins committed when we fall, and sometimes fasting and meditation to 'get in tune' with God's Spirit. Then with careful listening, the still small voice of our Heavenly Parent can be felt within us, sometimes accompanied simultaneously by feelings of intense joy as answers to real world problems infuse our heart and mind. Those who do not take the time to 'get in tune' with God miss out on some of life's most rewarding experiences...
I don't know why but the Lord withheld the priesthood from certain persons even though they were living worthily for several generations. So for them yes the 1978 revelation from the Lord was a "new" and perhaps "radical" change.
But I think you are perhaps looking for a sign and fail to understand the principle of revelation, which is the "rock" upon which the Lord builds and governs his church. As a husband and father I have the right to (and do) receive revelation/guidance for myself and for my own family, but not for someone else's family. Bishops receive revelation to benefit their own local congregation, but not for other flocks. Sunday School presidents receive revelation to help them with their duties, as do teachers, choristers, etc. And it goes on through all the official callings in the church with only the President of the Church having the right to receive revelation for the entire church in God's orderly way of doing things.
That's why I write often of each individual being able to have a personal relationship with God the Father and Jesus Christ with two-way communication, revelation from God usually received via the Holy Spirit.
It requires sincere and humble daily prayer, living as best you can with speedy repentance and forsaking of sins committed when we fall, and sometimes fasting and meditation to 'get in tune' with God's Spirit. Then with careful listening, the still small voice of our Heavenly Parent can be felt within us, sometimes accompanied simultaneously by feelings of intense joy as answers to real world problems infuse our heart and mind. Those who do not take the time to 'get in tune' with God miss out on some of life's most rewarding experiences...
We may be saying the same thing, but using different words.
For example, the perceived requirement that catholic priests be single is not revelation, but doctrine. And there may come a time when the catholic church changes that rule ( and many are looking forward to that day ). But if and when that happens, it will not be as the result of some new truth revealed by God, but merely an evolution springing from the Churches development of doctrine as the leader of it's flock.
And no less should we christians have to tolerate being barraged with arrogant, condescending, intolerance from those who claim to be what they are not. This is not from God or Christian....
What if the bible isn't all we're going to get from God?
I often invite you to discuss things that are off topic but about Mormons in the appropriate thread. Or is it your purpose to consistently throw off-topic comments into the threads I write in to try to sow seeds of doubt about LDS beliefs and possibly about my credibility?
Here's a link to an appropriate thread where I and other LDS board members would be pleased to respond to your comments:
We may be saying the same thing, but using different words.
For example, the perceived requirement that catholic priests be single is not revelation, but doctrine. And there may come a time when the catholic church changes that rule ( and many are looking forward to that day ). But if and when that happens, it will not be as the result of some new truth revealed by God, but merely an evolution springing from the Churches development of doctrine as the leader of it's flock.
Sure, there is a difference between doctrines of salvation and organization policies and procedures. Inspired programs change when inspiration/revelation is received by people with authority to make changes as circumstances and needs evolve over time, culture, and geography. It is my belief though that all the doctrines of salvation are available to us right now and we will be accountable at the judgment bar for how we treat them.
But we can receive individual guidance and revelation for our day to day living and necessary problem solving and comfort. God has not abandoned His children on earth to the opinions of scholars and paid professional clergy regardless of how much they would like to take over. Each of us can have a personal relationship with God. Each of us can benefit highly by opening our minds to the possibility that there were other prophets and writers who wrote books meant for our learning that are just as valid and just as valuable as the books scholars decided to put into today's bible.
But I understand the intense exclusive loyalty to the bible when you have been taught all your life that that's all you're going to get from God...
What if the bible isn't all we're going to get from God?
I often invite you to discuss things that are off topic but about Mormons in the appropriate thread. Or is it your purpose to consistently throw off-topic comments into the threads I write in to try to sow seeds of doubt about LDS beliefs and possibly about my credibility?
Here's a link to an appropriate thread where I and other LDS board members would be pleased to respond to your comments:
I pray very much that God does through me plant that seeds of doubt in your mind about LDS beliefs. I also hope many who read them do realize what LDS is not...Christian.
I do not intend to discredit you, but have you and other Mormons and potentials see that LDS is like a onion, strip away the outer layers and you'll find a much different entity than thought.
Many of your anti-web hate charges are unfounded. You're still in "circle the wagon" mode. I'm not interested about debating the merits Mormonism, but calling you out of the slavery of Mormonism to a God that offers freedom through forgiveness.
It is still very possible for you, justamere10
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-22-2009 at 09:09 AM..
I pray very much that God does through me plant that seeds of doubt in your mind about LDS beliefs. I also hope many who read them do realize what LDS is not...Christian.
I do not intend to discredit you, but have you and other Mormons and potentials see that LDS is like a onion, strip away the outer layers and you'll find a much different entity than thought.
Many of your anti-web hate charges are unfounded. You're still in "circle the wagon" mode. I'm not interested about debating the merits Mormonism, but calling you out of the slavery of Mormonism to a God that offers freedom through forgiveness.
It is still very possible for you, justamere10
I appreciate your apparent sincerity and concern for me and the 14,000,000 or so followers of Jesus Christ who KNOW LDS beliefs and that they are good and of God.
You fail to understand our beliefs, that's why I suppose ten times or more I have invited you to an appropriate thread where we can have a calm civil discussion about the things about us you fear most likely because you have not studied at the right places. I too would have concerns if I believed what is taught about us on anti-Mormon sites. But I've LIVED Mormon for more than 40 years, I KNOW the truth about Mormons, and I'm perfectly content.
I invite you to come over to the "Mormons Made Simple" thread and post one comment or ask one specific question at a time and I'll try to help you understand why you are kicking against the pricks when you fight the Latter-day Saints even though you may think you are doing what's right (as did Paul when he fought the former day Saints.)
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