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That`s the point,Aschultz. Who has the total truth? You? Others who believe differently than you can say ,you are misled and do not have the truth. There are men who have been studying God`s word all of their lives who believe differently than you. Men who pray for truth and God`s guidance everyday. They will say you cannot discern the truth. You say they don`t have the truth, and so it goes.
That is your right. Perhaps others would be offended at your theology and would zealously defend their belief. See how that works?
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Biblical sound to who? You? Others would say their belief is biblical sound. So it goes around and around. You give a scripture,then they give a scripture,etc. You say they are misled,they say you are misled.
Well, all I can say is a lot of reasoning that people use on here used to be my reasoning as well. But I am now thoroughly convinced that there is no trinity and God will eventually reconcile ALL of his creation. Others on here,maybe even you, have called me a heretic,messenger of satan,etc. But their reasoning used to be my reasoning. So yes, you should be cautious in what you think is eye opening.
Well, I hope you are not here to condemn. But I can almost assure you that anything you have to offer has been reasoned,debated,talked about,studied,and analyzed over and over on here. The internet is full of every biblical topic imaginable. Debated by those with much more knowledge than you or I over and over. The greatest minds of philosphy,religion,christianity,etc. have long debated the same topics for thousands of years. There really is nothing new under the sun. But there are always new posters or lurkers that happen along looking for answers. Perhaps we (you,me,all of of us) can be enlightened by something new.
Well, that`s your opinion isn`t it? Perhaps a lot of it is nonsense. But thanks for joining the fray. Are you here in your infinite wisdom to straighten out all the nonsense?
I have another forum to attend to, but your words are of men. In more effect they have the concept of democracy in them. This is not a condemnation, but more I recognize myself in them and what I once was.
If I attack you and call you fool then I am not Christ. This is the Truth of wisdom and humility. You seem to think I am attacking doctrine. I am not. Saying Christ is not God, is not a matter of doctrine, it is a matter of Christian principle. It is the core, it is all 66 chapters of the Bible. Many instantly say they are offended, they find it repulsive, or some other US inspired principle. This is what Postmodernism has bred in man and sadly in Christianity. When saying Christ is not God you are not establishing doctrine, but confirming a world view. The majority of the world claims Christ is not God. Athiests, tons of religons, cults, unlearned man. To act is it is a matter of doctrine is incorrect. In sin it is what makes men the same as other men, but our difference is in Christ, God coming down to man as we can not rise to him.
I have said my words and have no fear in them. If I had not spoken them out of wisdom and humility in Christ then I should fear. I am going to be moving to a new post today. I will address anything furthur in emails.
Its good to know that when we seek God and pray for his Love he will always catch us when we fall.
God Bless.
Thank you miss. I understand your questions and please take mine as always of wisdom and humility. It is not of my will that I do this. Much is the consequence of my sins, but make no mistake I know my salvation. I have done so much to justify sin, in what short time I have left I have more work to do then I can ever complete.
Did you know My Pastor personally tries to make me smile? Not a day goes by where I do not feel the pains of man or the tears of my God.
May The Lord God Jesus Christ always find you in Truth.
An interesting point you make, but simply use your own logic. It is by your logic that if I am wrong I do so to my own peril, but by your own logic no one is wrong. So what have I to fear? But if your logic is not theologically correct who falls.
But I say this again as many miss the point. Your words are nothing new to me. I used them. I breathed them. I yearned for them. And then I fell hard, harder than anything you may know.
Today I drove down a road and was thinking of your posts and your words. Tears came to my eyes. Your words are sweet to me I know the flavor I tasted it. But I also remember the bitterness after. I remember my fall and this is why I implore you to consider the alternative. You are walking a fine line between Christianity and everything else. it is the edge of a knife and while you get your pats on the back, take it from one who has been there the pats feel good. As you assume I want the adoration of my teachers it could never be more a lie. It is not my teachers I yearn for, but The Lord God Jesus Christ.
I don't think you understand where I came from. I was literally born and bred Christianity... not conservative Christianity but Pentecostal Christianity. I think I attended church more than I saw the doctor and went to school combined growing up. My point is that I have never experience unbelief or what you term as darkness. God has always been in my life.
Even though I was indoctrinated with Christianity, the trinity, gifts of the spirit etc.. there was always a twinge of incredulity when certain subjects were discussed in church. There was nothing I could do but accept it with blind faith as the church leaders told me but I still had questions. The subjects I questioned were really things taught to me in sunday school for kids that as an adult were changed.
For example, I was taught that Jesus loves me with no strings attached.. yet in the adult service there were all sorts of strings.. be good, don't sin, repent, don't swear, and then if you confess you believe then you might be saved. I was also taught as a child that God is love.. yet as an adult I was taught that if you didn't obey God, he would throw you in hell to burn forever... Another point was the rapture but moving on.. can you see how the contradictions started?
As an adult I had to research on my own (even though I was told that I was not a teacher and therefore could never understand God fully on my own) and in just simply reading the bible from cover to cover as an adult I found that what I was taught did not hold up to simple reading as I would any book. The fact is that organized Christianity has become the very image of 1st century Judaism. IMO There is a straying from the simplicity of the gospel.
Ask yourself this:
If Jesus was human and not God would the gospel be different? In what way?
I can see no difference. In fact, I see that when we take a look at his death I see plainly (without any doctrine to explain concepts that are foreign to us and scripture) that Jesus was a human being willing to spread God's word despite hostility and death. He truly suffered as a human on the cross. God did not suffer and die. Jesus, the human did. You can add that Jesus was God and yet his humanity suffered and God did not yet experienced the suffering but that really makes little sense and is really adding to what scripture states.
I will never fall back into the trap I was in growing up. I felt that I was so depraved that I must not be worthy of righteousness. However, when I came upon the truth in my study, I felt a peace and security that stemmed from the very love of God. The trap I fell into growing up was that God was to complicated to understand.. but then why would God be so adamant that we understand him if he is truly beyond our comprehension?
So I think you are under the impression that I have had a falling away of faith but actually the opposite is true. I am stronger in faith tenfold than I have ever been because I know there is truth and there is belief.
God is God of all not just those who believe in him.
God is perfect love and love casts out fear. If you are fearful it is not of God.
These are truths that I have discovered. To me there is no greater sacrifice than giving your life for a friend and that is exactly what Jesus did. To better the lives of his generation and beyond he said and did what God said to say and do and he was killed for it.
Does God need sacrifices in order to forgive men? Absolutely not.
Does God need to sacrifice himself in order to give grace to men? Absolutely not!
So knowing all that about me.. do you still think I am where you were?
I am stronger in faith tenfold than I have ever been because I know there is truth and there is belief.
God is God of all not just those who believe in him.
God is perfect love and love casts out fear. If you are fearful it is not of God.
These are truths that I have discovered.
Thank you for this insight into your background and journey to find the truth about God, kat. Knowing the beliefs and childhood conditioning you had to "overcome" (Pentecostal) to discern the truth within them . . . it is truly inspiring of hope. I had the benefit of these truths from direct experience . . . despite my early atheism . . . and I have tried many times to pierce the protective veil of ignorance and superstition that enshrouds religious dogma and doctrines. I despaired of anyone ever being able to break the early perceptual conditioning to see the reality of the truth.
Happily, the C-D forum has revealed so many wonderful posters like yourself who have made that discovery . . . (against all odds, IMO) . . . apparently without the benefit of the experience that shook me out of my spiritual slumber.
Quote:
To me there is no greater sacrifice than giving your life for a friend and that is exactly what Jesus did. To better the lives of his generation and beyond he said and did what God said to say and do and he was killed for it.
Does God need sacrifices in order to forgive men? Absolutely not.
Does God need to sacrifice himself in order to give grace to men? Absolutely not!
The superstitious underpinnings of these two beliefs run as far back into antiquity as our human records can penetrate, kat. They will not be easily discarded . . . nor do they need to be. God is God and His love for us is absolute. It is supremely irrelevant what you need to believe to accept that truth and to "love God and each other" as Jesus did.
Thank you for this insight into your background and journey to find the truth about God, kat. Knowing the beliefs and childhood conditioning you had to "overcome" (Pentecostal) to discern the truth within them . . . it is truly inspiring of hope. I had the benefit of these truths from direct experience . . . despite my early atheism . . . and I have tried many times to pierce the protective veil of ignorance and superstition that enshrouds religious dogma and doctrines. I despaired of anyone ever being able to break the early perceptual conditioning to see the reality of the truth.
It was not so much as a struggle as you would think except that it was a complete change in my perception of God. I was at the lowest point in my life yet I had the love of God.. that thought alone is what started this whole journey! The best and most rewarding journey that turned water into wine...
Quote:
Happily, the C-D forum has revealed so many wonderful posters like yourself who have made that discovery . . . (against all odds, IMO) . . . apparently without the benefit of the experience that shook me out of my spiritual slumber.
Well it may not have been the same but the result is similar, I believe.
Quote:
The superstitious underpinnings of these two beliefs run as far back into antiquity as our human records can penetrate, kat. They will not be easily discarded . . . nor do they need to be. God is God and His love for us is absolute. It is supremely irrelevant what you need to believe to accept that truth and to "love God and each other" as Jesus did.
It is interesting that you say that because I almost deleted it before I posted it. but you have to admit moving forward in the spiritual maturity of mankind would be nice.
I don't think you understand where I came from. I was literally born and bred Christianity... not conservative Christianity but Pentecostal Christianity. I think I attended church more than I saw the doctor and went to school combined growing up. My point is that I have never experience unbelief or what you term as darkness. God has always been in my life.
Even though I was indoctrinated with Christianity, the trinity, gifts of the spirit etc.. there was always a twinge of incredulity when certain subjects were discussed in church. There was nothing I could do but accept it with blind faith as the church leaders told me but I still had questions. The subjects I questioned were really things taught to me in sunday school for kids that as an adult were changed.
For example, I was taught that Jesus loves me with no strings attached.. yet in the adult service there were all sorts of strings.. be good, don't sin, repent, don't swear, and then if you confess you believe then you might be saved. I was also taught as a child that God is love.. yet as an adult I was taught that if you didn't obey God, he would throw you in hell to burn forever... Another point was the rapture but moving on.. can you see how the contradictions started?
As an adult I had to research on my own (even though I was told that I was not a teacher and therefore could never understand God fully on my own) and in just simply reading the bible from cover to cover as an adult I found that what I was taught did not hold up to simple reading as I would any book. The fact is that organized Christianity has become the very image of 1st century Judaism. IMO There is a straying from the simplicity of the gospel.
Ask yourself this:
If Jesus was human and not God would the gospel be different? In what way?
I can see no difference. In fact, I see that when we take a look at his death I see plainly (without any doctrine to explain concepts that are foreign to us and scripture) that Jesus was a human being willing to spread God's word despite hostility and death. He truly suffered as a human on the cross. God did not suffer and die. Jesus, the human did. You can add that Jesus was God and yet his humanity suffered and God did not yet experienced the suffering but that really makes little sense and is really adding to what scripture states.
I will never fall back into the trap I was in growing up. I felt that I was so depraved that I must not be worthy of righteousness. However, when I came upon the truth in my study, I felt a peace and security that stemmed from the very love of God. The trap I fell into growing up was that God was to complicated to understand.. but then why would God be so adamant that we understand him if he is truly beyond our comprehension?
So I think you are under the impression that I have had a falling away of faith but actually the opposite is true. I am stronger in faith tenfold than I have ever been because I know there is truth and there is belief.
God is God of all not just those who believe in him.
God is perfect love and love casts out fear. If you are fearful it is not of God.
These are truths that I have discovered. To me there is no greater sacrifice than giving your life for a friend and that is exactly what Jesus did. To better the lives of his generation and beyond he said and did what God said to say and do and he was killed for it.
Does God need sacrifices in order to forgive men? Absolutely not.
Does God need to sacrifice himself in order to give grace to men? Absolutely not!
So knowing all that about me.. do you still think I am where you were?
With respect let me testify to you a truth. My mother married my father and left my father for another woman. This led to a whole mess of doctrinal instruction for me. When those who claim homosexuality doesnt destroy I would argue otherwise, but moving on.
I started out a Seventh Day Adventist and Roman Catholic, I moved on to Unitarianism, Athiesm next, Pentacostalism, New Age, I have flirted with a mixture of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Read my posts on the Holy Spirit. I am moving onto more revelation to you in that post. I highly encourage you to see it. I promise to you and let God witness between us. I have seen so much, but the truth in my post that I have answered to you there is Christianity.
Thank you for this insight into your background and journey to find the truth about God, kat. Knowing the beliefs and childhood conditioning you had to "overcome" (Pentecostal) to discern the truth within them . . . it is truly inspiring of hope. I had the benefit of these truths from direct experience . . . despite my early atheism . . . and I have tried many times to pierce the protective veil of ignorance and superstition that enshrouds religious dogma and doctrines. I despaired of anyone ever being able to break the early perceptual conditioning to see the reality of the truth.
Happily, the C-D forum has revealed so many wonderful posters like yourself who have made that discovery . . . (against all odds, IMO) . . . apparently without the benefit of the experience that shook me out of my spiritual slumber.The superstitious underpinnings of these two beliefs run as far back into antiquity as our human records can penetrate, kat. They will not be easily discarded . . . nor do they need to be. God is God and His love for us is absolute. It is supremely irrelevant what you need to believe to accept that truth and to "love God and each other" as Jesus did.
I suppose all you need is Love is enough. But is it the love of man you have or the Love of God. I have seen much done in the name of love. Or am I to presume that as long as you love it doesnt matter. A rapist can love his victim, and in truth some victims come to love the rapist. A mother can love a son and let him murder and protect him. A preacher can love a altar boy and sodomize him. But I suppose All You Need is Love by the Beatles says it all. How quaint a eastern religous ideal stemming from polytheism. This is not meant as an attack, but a true question. If all you need is love, how come man's love for himself ruins the world? Do not claim enlightenment. Even Adam sinned in love by accepting a gift from Eve that he knew God told him by his own Word to not do.
I suppose all you need is Love is enough. But is it the love of man you have or the Love of God. I have seen much done in the name of love. Or am I to presume that as long as you love it doesnt matter. A rapist can love his victim, and in truth some victims come to love the rapist. A mother can love a son and let him murder and protect him. A preacher can love a altar boy and sodomize him. But I suppose All You Need is Love by the Beatles says it all. How quaint a eastern religous ideal stemming from polytheism. This is not meant as an attack, but a true question. If all you need is love, how come man's love for himself ruins the world? Do not claim enlightenment. Even Adam sinned in love by accepting a gift from Eve that he knew God told him by his own Word to not do.
Now do you really call the love a rapist has for a victim God's love?
agape - brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
None of which are present if one party is hurt in the exchange.. by definition. So rather than try to twist the definition of love simply think about this passage:
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (1 John 4:7-12)
It seems as though you want to spread a message but you are unwilling to listen to rebuttal or disagreement. In fact all that I have seen from you is that you used to be there and we need to read what you post more closely.. I would hope you would reply in the manner you wish us all to reply and read our posts in the same manner you wish us all to read your posts.
I suppose all you need is Love is enough. But is it the love of man you have or the Love of God. I have seen much done in the name of love. Or am I to presume that as long as you love it doesnt matter. A rapist can love his victim, and in truth some victims come to love the rapist. A mother can love a son and let him murder and protect him. A preacher can love a altar boy and sodomize him. But I suppose All You Need is Love by the Beatles says it all. How quaint a eastern religous ideal stemming from polytheism. This is not meant as an attack, but a true question. If all you need is love, how come man's love for himself ruins the world? Do not claim enlightenment. Even Adam sinned in love by accepting a gift from Eve that he knew God told him by his own Word to not do.
True agape love (or as the Buddhists would call it "maitri") is not remotely compatible with the acts you ascribe to it. Unfortunately, most of us are too easily confused by the self-centered forms of love commingled with lust and the other negative human emotions to properly understand it. The example of Jesus was supposed to make that unambiguous . . . but our negative carnal human emotions are too powerful and easily corrupt our understanding. The love we are talking about has nothing to do with our carnality. I did not see any attack . . . but I am glad there wasn't one.
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but you have to admit moving forward in the spiritual maturity of mankind would be nice.
