Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I don't think you understand where I came from. I was literally born and bred Christianity... not conservative Christianity but Pentecostal Christianity. I think I attended church more than I saw the doctor and went to school combined growing up. My point is that I have never experience unbelief or what you term as darkness. God has always been in my life.
Even though I was indoctrinated with Christianity, the trinity, gifts of the spirit etc.. there was always a twinge of incredulity when certain subjects were discussed in church. There was nothing I could do but accept it with blind faith as the church leaders told me but I still had questions. The subjects I questioned were really things taught to me in sunday school for kids that as an adult were changed.
For example, I was taught that Jesus loves me with no strings attached.. yet in the adult service there were all sorts of strings.. be good, don't sin, repent, don't swear, and then if you confess you believe then you might be saved. I was also taught as a child that God is love.. yet as an adult I was taught that if you didn't obey God, he would throw you in hell to burn forever... Another point was the rapture but moving on.. can you see how the contradictions started?
As an adult I had to research on my own (even though I was told that I was not a teacher and therefore could never understand God fully on my own) and in just simply reading the bible from cover to cover as an adult I found that what I was taught did not hold up to simple reading as I would any book. The fact is that organized Christianity has become the very image of 1st century Judaism. IMO There is a straying from the simplicity of the gospel.
Ask yourself this:
If Jesus was human and not God would the gospel be different? In what way?
I can see no difference. In fact, I see that when we take a look at his death I see plainly (without any doctrine to explain concepts that are foreign to us and scripture) that Jesus was a human being willing to spread God's word despite hostility and death. He truly suffered as a human on the cross. God did not suffer and die. Jesus, the human did. You can add that Jesus was God and yet his humanity suffered and God did not yet experienced the suffering but that really makes little sense and is really adding to what scripture states.
I will never fall back into the trap I was in growing up. I felt that I was so depraved that I must not be worthy of righteousness. However, when I came upon the truth in my study, I felt a peace and security that stemmed from the very love of God. The trap I fell into growing up was that God was to complicated to understand.. but then why would God be so adamant that we understand him if he is truly beyond our comprehension?
So I think you are under the impression that I have had a falling away of faith but actually the opposite is true. I am stronger in faith tenfold than I have ever been because I know there is truth and there is belief.
God is God of all not just those who believe in him.
God is perfect love and love casts out fear. If you are fearful it is not of God.
These are truths that I have discovered. To me there is no greater sacrifice than giving your life for a friend and that is exactly what Jesus did. To better the lives of his generation and beyond he said and did what God said to say and do and he was killed for it.
Does God need sacrifices in order to forgive men? Absolutely not.
Does God need to sacrifice himself in order to give grace to men? Absolutely not!
So knowing all that about me.. do you still think I am where you were?
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As a matter of fact I do and even more so yearn to connect with you. Your message is long and I will attempt to cover as much as I can. I apologize, but I am tired and my fingers hurt a bit tonight? At the ripe old age of 36 I have arthritis LOL.
If Jesus was human and not God would the gospel be different? In what way?
No man can save himself from sin. Not one. Even Adam created in perfection could not save himself. By the justice of God he could have been destroyed on the spot, but he wasn't. While cursed which is more consequence than punishment he was allowed to endure. What greater Love than that? If it did not happen you nor I would exist. Yet, we are of our father and we are sinners. God the Son who was the creative agent in the universe chose to come down to us. We can not come up to him. He became us, he became man, but remained divine. One must understand that only God can fulfill the obligations of his Law. The penalty of sin is death. If we do not accept God's plan for salvation willingly do not accept God. Only God could pay our price and only God could go to the cross. In all of human history can you find one who could accomplish this?
I can see no difference. In fact, I see that when we take a look at his death I see plainly (without any doctrine to explain concepts that are foreign to us and scripture) that Jesus was a human being willing to spread God's word despite hostility and death. He truly suffered as a human on the cross. God did not suffer and die. Jesus, the human did. You can add that Jesus was God and yet his humanity suffered and God did not yet experienced the suffering but that really makes little sense and is really adding to what scripture states.
I suggest what you see plainly is more a reasoning of your mind then scripture. The very foundation of Christianity is the principle of the sin of man. This is one of those things I reasoned as you. Do not think I did not go to Sunday School either, I did. You may see it as indoctrination, but please understand this is an American term. In our lives we have been bred the distrust of everything and anything. The Devil uses this against us. It is truely one of our most vulnerable points of attack. I submitted to it myself and was overrun. Are there church's out there in apostasy? Yes. Do denomintation quarrel over doctrine? Yes. I am not appealing to you to think as a denomination. Never let it be. I appeal to you as a man who sees a sister in need. I cried for you today. I am a man. Ive been here a few short weeks, but I love you as others I search for. The consequence of my false teachings, my pride, and my arrogance may be to much for some, but I do it knowing I have a short time left. If Paul stated he was a bond slave, I too feel the same.
I will never fall back into the trap I was in growing up. I felt that I was so depraved that I must not be worthy of righteousness. However, when I came upon the truth in my study, I felt a peace and security that stemmed from the very love of God. The trap I fell into growing up was that God was to complicated to understand.. but then why would God be so adamant that we understand him if he is truly beyond our comprehension?
What trap do I offer? I
KNOW I was depraved and I
KNOW I am not worthy of his righteousness. Is your guilt the same as mine or more aptly is my sin the same as yours? Let me give you some of my sin.
Down off the coast of Columbia is a small isle. Many years ago it had a prison type area commonly refered to as "The Compound". The Walls were concrete about 12 feet high and quite think with barbed wire around it. There was one entrance where you entered and were checked for weapons. Inside were neat little apartments with one bathroom and beds. Here is where the women of the isle went to pay off their debt. On Christmas Night of 1996 I went there and found the most beautiful of Hispanic women (I am white, but I have always loved Hispanic women), where I paid her 25 dollars to lie on a bed and let me enter her. She was there because of her debt and I used that to defile her. When I was done I got up and faced the wall as she lay on the bed. Right in my face over the bed was a cross. This is but a piece of my guilt. So I ask you truely, what trap am I? Can you verify my claim? NO Yet, let me witness to you that before Christ I will let him certify to you my claim when the time comes. Of this I have no fear.
I do not doubt in anyway you dont yearn for him and I do not doubt I calls to you. I am not a Fundamentalist. I am not a Liberal. I am not a political party. That is what I was. I am just a lowly man who knows Christ. I know the enemy hates him and he hates you. He will do whatever is in his power to attack the core of Christ. It is of this that I beg you to think. Let others condemn, but as for me and mine I will serve the Lord.
So I think you are under the impression that I have had a falling away of faith but actually the opposite is true. I am stronger in faith tenfold than I have ever been because I know there is truth and there is belief.
I see more in you. The Lord God Jesus Christ sees more in you. I have no doubt if he didnt it would not be after midnight with my hands hurting me sitting here typing away. I can say no more than this.
God is God of all not just those who believe in him.
God is perfect love and love casts out fear. If you are fearful it is not of God.
God is not just love, God is slow in anger so that all should repent in Christ Jesus,
Yet, God is in love is also just. If one transgresses there is not one who can argue his punishment is unjust. While Christ did come to Love first, he will judge on his return and all will find him just both the condemned and the saved. This is harsh and man can not accept it. But this is the price of sin and The Lord God paid it in full.
These are truths that I have discovered. To me there is no greater sacrifice than giving your life for a friend and that is exactly what Jesus did. To better the lives of his generation and beyond he said and did what God said to say and do and he was killed for it.
How right you are. However I say again no man could do this. Look around and find one man who can. Dig thru history. Look at the evil in man's heart. Nothing of man has ever come of anything good. However, in all of history there is only spoken of once one who could pay the price. His life was not taken of from him. His life was given freely so that all could be saved who believe in him. Only God could do this, no simple man could not.
Does God need sacrifices in order to forgive men? Absolutely not.
Does God need to sacrifice himself in order to give grace to men? Absolutely not!
God needs nothing, but God establishes everything. This is the path he chose. The wages of sin is death. The penalty of sin is death. We are rightly condemned at birth for our sin. Yet, he chose to come down and pay our price. He submitted himself, innocence in all its glory, to His own Law so that all might find salvation. He chose the sacrifices of animals first so that the Jews being a priestly people could point to him. They arrogantly saw themselves greater. But that in no way demeans the sacrifice. He saw man in love as worthy of redemption, but man must look to him first. God the Son did die for man and rose again so that we might be reborn with him. This is Truth. You may think it not needed, but He did.
Jesus does love you Kat. It is not a string, it is simply an act of faith. When I post I pray to him for the wisdom to speak truth. In all my depravity, the above is but a taste, I have faith in his word that though my sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as snow. This is true love, not some idea that love is everywhere. Kat you are a woman let me tell you I have been places where you would not even have this ability to speak with me. What a blessing that you can yet still for I know a time comes when even then not only will woman be silence, but man as well. It is from the depth of Love I beg you to move outside the ideas of doctrine and indoctrination and see Jesus Christ as he is. Let God be a witness between you and I that if I am wrong or have spoken falsely let it be upon me. As in Ezekiel the watchman, must warn the town of attack, for if he does not the blood of the people is upon him. It is from this Love I beg you. Not the love of vipers, slanderers, and discontents. Believe in him The Lord God Jesus Christ and what you saw in this email as tenfold will seem as nothing. Let this message be a witness and message of Glory in Christ.
May The Lord God Jesus Christ show you Truth.
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