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the fundamental doctrines of our faith we do agree on, and that my friend, is all that matters.
It will probably not surprise you that AISI what you say matters most to you and what I believe matters most to God are worlds apart.
"All that matters" would actually be that every lost sheep be found and brought home. Which (no surprise to me) is also a world apart from the premise of your OP.
I will try to defend universalism from a different point of view:
Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Ezekiel 16:55 (I reccomend to read the whole chapter)
When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
conclusion, Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth of an example of the eternal fire, yet they shall return to their former estate and their judgment is more tolerable then that of others, this shows that the people of Sodom can not be everlastingly doomed.
as for preterism - this is the doctrine, that all or most biblical prophecies have already been fulfilled? - I'm not very familiar with this doctrine and don't share this view personnally.
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Verse 23 clarifies this even further in that "each in his own order" will be raised, first, "the firstfruit-Christ (those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit), then those who are of the Christ." This limits the "all" to only "those who are in the Christ." If Paul would have said, "the firstfruit-Christ, then all who die in Adam" the universalist would be thrilled.
you have omitted, "then the end"
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
I Christ the firstfruits;
II afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
III Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
there seem to be three orders, who are the third that are made alive?
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Revelation plainly teaches that the destiny of the devil is the same destiny of those not found written in the book of life: the second death.
not actually, Satan never suffered a first death, so how shall he suffer a second death? - the bible says the devil, the beast and the false prophet are tormented into ages of ages (eis tous aionas ton aionon in the Greek, saecula saeculorum in in the Latin bible), it further says that death and Hades are thrown in the lake of fire - will they be tormented?, it further mentions a second death, when talking about men. For me it seems that men perish in the lake of fire (second death) while the devil, the beast and the false prophet are tormented there alive and death and hades are (figuratively) destroyed. None of this facts does by necessity contradict universalism.
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But, this would include the devil and demons and the animal kingdom, slugs and bats – something DeRose said above that, "Some universalists intend their position to apply animals, and some to fallen angels or even to Satan himself, but in my hands, it will be intended to apply only to human beings."
the Greek expression is ta panta, it means something like "the whole" or the entire universe
John 1:3
All things (the whole [universe]) were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things (the whole [universe]), and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Wisdom 9:1
O God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things (i.e. the entire universe, Greek: ta panta) with thy word
the same expression "ta panta" (in John 1:3 only "panta") as in the verses above will be reconciled with God according to Colossians 1:20, animals and things need not to be reconciled with God, therefore it can only apply to rational beings, all ration beings in the entire universe - which would include Satan and the demons - or how else would the whole [universe] be reconciled with God?
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"So we disagree with two-thousand years of church history and every creed and confession that have been written…big deal." One can rightly see that those who are "orthodox" would look upon this attitude as simply, well, heretical.
1500 years, universalism was condemned about 550 AD, not even by the pope but by a Roman emperor, Justinian.
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The question asked is, is DeRose a heretic?
this was St. Augustine's opinion on the subject (Enchiridion 112)
"...some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..."
btw I wonder why you chose DeRose to refute universalism, he seems not to be most convincing and biblically versed supporter of universalism, there are other authors wo seem to have greater knowledge then he does.
Your argument is flawed. Do you not realize that a logical argument, such as the one presented by Paul, typically moves from the group in view in the thesis to more specific groups or to more general groups in order to make various points? Just because you find a more specific group in the context of Paul's proof does not mean that "all" refers to that group.
Paul's thesis is that there is a resurrection of the dead. Anyone who is dead or will be dead.
In the process of proving that the dead rise, Paul focuses on each of the following smaller groups.
1. Christ
2. Cephas, the twelve, above 500 brethren
3. Believers who have died
4. Believers who are alive and preach Christ is risen.
Each group is brought up to show a particular contradiction that results from believing the more general statement "there is no resurrection of the dead". Just because Paul focuses on subgroups to prove his point, does not mean Paul has lost track of his thesis.
Paul's focus moves back from these specific groups to the dead in general right here.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Since by man came death. Upon whom did death come? Only believers? No, all men without exception die in Adam. The focus is no longer just on Christ, Cephas, the twelve, above 500, believers who sleep, believes who are alive. The focus is back on "the dead".
Paul is perfectly capable of saying "all believers die in Adam, even so all believers will be made alive in Christ" or "all WHO ARE in Adam die, even so all WHO ARE in Christ will be made alive." But that's not what he said.
Furthermore, the context that follows shows that God will be all in all, and mentions three groups of people defining the "all" whom God will be in.
1. Christ
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming
3. All enemies made subject to Christ and put under His feet
Applying your policy to this passage would lead to the conclusion that the resurrection of the dead is limited to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because these are "the dead" mentioned in context.
Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Do you believe that Christ died for every man without exception?
God has already paid the price for the New Covenant.
And readers of this forum, this is exactly what I am saying. Trettep, like most universalists, take one verse to support their case. This is called eisegesis.
Trettep,
You disregard context and audience relevance.
You have failed, once again.
Run along...this is a debate thread, not a romper room screaming match. I have no time for that.
Either grow up, and refute it with sound exegesis, or carry on your wayward.
Refute each and every point I have made, or don't, and save it for someone else who has a better grip on discernment of the scripture in regards to Universalism.
I know there are a few here, and I am waiting for a mature debate with each and every one of them.
Because it is obvious that YOU do not and cannot.
Please, I implore you, save the space for someone who can.
I got the whole Bible supporting universalism. There is no this verse - verses - that verse. It isn't the universalist that is trying to say that Jesus will fail in eradicating sin which is exactly what preaching eternal torment does. God said we fight not against flesh and blood and what does eternal torment believe? They believe that flesh and blood will received eternal punishment.
I will try to defend universalism from a different point of view:
Thanks for joining in and providing a sound exegetical response.
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Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Ezekiel 16:55 (I reccomend to read the whole chapter)
When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
conclusion, Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth of an example of the eternal fire, yet they shall return to their former estate and their judgment is more tolerable then that of others, this shows that the people of Sodom can not be everlastingly doomed.
Let's deal with this teleportation of scriptures, from back to forth and forth to back as if the Old Testament is revealing a future event for this scripture noted in the Ne Testament shall we?
Observe:
Thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thee in the day of they pride, verse. 56.
They thought Sodom was not worthy to be named the same day with Jerusalem, little dreaming that Jerusalem would at length lie under a worse and more scandalous character than Sodom herself. Those that are high may perhaps come to stand upon a level with those they despise.
Or Sodom was not mentioned, that is, the warning designed to be given to thee by Sodom’s ruin was not regarded.
If the Jews had but talked more frequently and seriously to one another, and to their children, concerning the wrath of God revealed from heaven against Sodom’s ungodliness and unrighteousness, it might have kept them in awe, and prevented their treading in their steps, but instead they kept the thought of it at a distance, and would not bear the mention of it, and put Isaiah to death for putting them in mind of it, when he called them rulers of Sodom and people of Gomorrah,Isa. 1:10.
Note, Those are but preparing judgments for themselves that will not take notice of God’s judgments upon others.
Those that will not adhere to God as their God have no reason to expect that he should continue to own them as his people. The captivity of the wicked Jews, and their ruin, shall be as irrevocable as that of Sodom and Samaria.
In this sense, as a threat, verse 53 and 55. "When I shall bring again the captivity of Sodom and Samaria, and when they shall return to their former estate, then I will bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them, and as it were for their sakes, and under their shadow and protection, because they are more righteous than thou, and then thou shalt return to thy former estate,’’
Sodom and Samaria were never brought back, nor ever returned to their former estate, and therefore let not Jerusalem expect it, that is, those who now remained there, whom God would deliver to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt,Jer. 24:9,
Eze 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride.
Stay in context please and refrain from "wordproofing".
It does the view much harm.
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you have omitted, "then the end"
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
I Christ the firstfruits;
II afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
III Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
I didn't omit anything. What you have missed is the context and relelavnce of the subject of 1 Corinthians 15. The context is the dead kin of the congregation at Corinth, and their inquiry of their relatives based on the infiltration of those that are denying the resurrection will happen, or has happened. You are replying with a rebuttal that has no weight. I am a Preterist, the end, has context around it in this discourse, and is indivisibly aligned with scripture throughout the entire word, and that end is identified with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. You have noted you aren't familliar with Preterism, familliarize yourself first, and you will be able to attempt a better refutation of my claim with a foundation.
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who are the third that are made alive?
Again, context.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
That is the very congregation that Paul is speaking to, whoever is still alive....at His coming....the Parousia/Presence
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not actually, Satan never suffered a first death, so how shall he suffer a second death? - the bible says the devil, the beast and the false prophet are tormented into ages of ages (eis tous aionas ton aionon in the Greek, saecula saeculorum in in the Latin bible), it further says that death and Hades are thrown in the lake of fire - will they be tormented?, it further mentions a second death, when talking about men. For me it seems that men perish in the lake of fire (second death) while the devil, the beast and the false prophet are tormented there alive and death and hades are (figuratively) destroyed. None of this facts does by necessity contradict universalism.
What is your definition of Death, the Sea, and Hades?
First you must be able to define these in the context therein and interpret it justifiably. You are in the book of life or you aren't.
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the Greek expression is ta panta, it means something like "the whole" or the entire universe
John 1:3
All things (the whole [universe]) were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things (the whole [universe]), and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Wisdom 9:1
O God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things (i.e. the entire universe, Greek: ta panta) with thy word
the same expression "ta panta" (in John 1:3 only "panta") as in the verses above will be reconciled with God according to Colossians 1:20, animals and things need not to be reconciled with God, therefore it can only apply to rational beings, all ration beings in the entire universe - which would include Satan and the demons - or how else would the whole [universe] be reconciled with God?
Kosmos - Covenantal world order and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
For God so loved the (kosmos) He gave His only begotten Son.
The entire premise of Salvation has ONLY to do with the covenant God has established, the governement He created, not the enitre world as we know it. His governement is a selected people out of all, and the whole purpose of the gospel is to bring people into that Coveanantal relationship so they are reconciled back to Him.
This is the real message of Biblical Reconciliation. After this natural life, it is finished. If you are in Christ, you have eternal life. You will never die.
Our goal as Christians, is to tpreach the gospel, so that His government and Covenantal relationship between fallen man can increase.
This is His will, and is the sole purpose of Jesus Christ. To reconcile what was lost in the Covenantal relationship that was broken by Adam.
Your argument is flawed. Do you not realize that a logical argument, such as the one presented by Paul, typically moves from the group in view in the thesis to more specific groups or to more general groups in order to make various points? Just because you find a more specific group in the context of Paul's proof does not mean that "all" refers to that group.
Paul's thesis is that there is a resurrection of the dead. Anyone who is dead or will be dead.
In the process of proving that the dead rise, Paul focuses on each of the following smaller groups.
1. Christ
2. Cephas, the twelve, above 500 brethren
3. Believers who have died
4. Believers who are alive and preach Christ is risen.
Each group is brought up to show a particular contradiction that results from believing the more general statement "there is no resurrection of the dead". Just because Paul focuses on subgroups to prove his point, does not mean Paul has lost track of his thesis.
Who ever said he did?
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Paul's focus moves back from these specific groups to the dead in general right here.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Since by man came death. Upon whom did death come? Only believers?
I will stop you here for now. Adam was in Covenant right?
Why was Adam tossed from the Garden?
What is the directive of the discourse?
It is the blessed kin of the Corinth congregation, the "all" is those that Paul is speaking of, the dead ones, the saints.
To answer your question, yes. The believers. This is the context.
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No, all men without exception die in Adam. The focus is no longer just on Christ, Cephas, the twelve, above 500, believers who sleep, believes who are alive. The focus is back on "the dead".
Which are those that sleep. This isn't about the wicked in death, this is about believers, saints, those that believed in Christ and God with all their heart, etc.
Your view is flawed.
Again readers of the forum, a universalist not applying proper contextual arrangements of the text by imposing their rules and paradigm into the text.
This all, is ONLY those that believe. Those in Covenant. Government established in the Garden. Adam was created outside of the Garden, and was brought inside that garden, in covenant, sinned and was cast out of that covenant. Israel, married God in Covenant at Sinai. She played the harlot, and was cast outside of that covenant, twice! Christ confirmed the Evrelasting covenant with those that believed in Him in the heart, in Covenant.
Did I say Covenant?
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Furthermore, the context that follows shows that God will be all in all, and mentions three groups of people defining the "all" whom God will be in.
1. Christ
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming
3. All enemies made subject to Christ and put under His feet
Applying your policy to this passage would lead to the conclusion that the resurrection of the dead is limited to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob because these are "the dead" mentioned in context.
And everyone else that believed. How I am limiting? Your thesis is seriously flawed in regards to the context of the COVENANT. Scripture is covenantal, that's it. Deal with it or don't. Your choice. Christ died for those in His covenant. He died for all who enter into the Covenant. That's it.
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[Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Do you believe that Christ died for every man without exception?
In the synangogue, His response to what He had just experienced with the elders:
Matt 23....Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat...................And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; ...........and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city.......:Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Stay in context please. What generation is he speaking about? Yours?
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Do you believe that Christ died for every man without exception?
The exception is the covenant, the gospel, being saved from what is outside the city gates. Upon entering the covenant, you are rewarded the gift that He gave. But if you don't, well the scripture is plain, you stand outside of the city. The living are those In Christ. What are the dead to you?
The Tree of Life is in the Garden, a place where Adam was brought into, and then cast out of.
In Christ, we are brought back into that Garden, where the Tree of Life is, in Covenant.
You preach another gospel. It isn't Biblical, and you have not proved to the readers of the forum that it is, just made claims based on eisegesis, and imposition of your paradigm in the text. You have strayed from audience relevance, context, and rightly dividing time texts and covenantal awareness.
Without Christ. Dead, in Adam.
Next!
Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-17-2010 at 10:05 AM..
I always find it amusing how people excuse their desire for eternal torment/annihilation. Do you believe in eternal torment/annihilation? Do you have faith that it is true? Faith is the substance of things HOPED for ... So if you believe in and have faith in eternal torment/annihilation, it is quite clear that you hope that it is true ...
1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
So god desires that all people be saved ... Not some, not many, all people ...Can God accomplish his desire?
Mat 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
So we see god desires all people to be saved ... And we see that all things are possible for God. God can save all people ... God desires to save all people ... But will God save all people?
Isaiah 55:11(YLT)
So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it.
It says here that the word of God(Christ himself) accomplishes the desire of God ... So God desires to save all people, God can save all people, and Gods word accomplishes what he can and does desire to do ... So it is written ...
1 Tim 4:10-11
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
So the question is ...
Do you believe God desires to save all people or not?
Do you believe God can save all people or not?
Do you believe Gods word will accomplish his desire or not?
Do you believe God is the savior of all people or not?
...
If you answer no to any of the above questions, you are in direct opposition and contradiction of the word of God, and his desire ... Plain and simple, no matter how you spin it, or turn it, or contort it, or twist it, or mangle it ...
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