Open Debate - Is Universalism Biblical - A Preterist's perspective (Gospels, Epistles)

[Ironmaw1776]

Concerning the OP ... The same all who die in Adam, are the same all who will be made alive in Christ, are the same all who Christ will draw to himself, are the same all whom God is the savior of, are the same all who will bow their knee and confess Christ is their lord ...

John 12:32(YLT)
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

I always find it amusing how people excuse their desire for eternal torment/annihilation. Do you believe in eternal torment/annihilation? Do you have faith that it is true? Faith is the substance of things HOPED for ... So if you believe in and have faith in eternal torment/annihilation, it is quite clear that you hope that it is true ...

Actually this doesn't make sense.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED for ...

You left out the remainder of the passage:

Now faith is the assurance of {things} hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval.

Is believing the same as faith? Is that what it says?

Faith is conviction. Defined as:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

To believe is defined as:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

As you can see this isn't the same. Believing in universalism as true, is to think it is true. Of course you may be wrong, as pointed out by the debate going on.
But that doesn't change the faith you have in God, does it? If you are wrong about universalism, does this make you wrong about the fact that there is the One true God and His Son Jesus Christ?

[Ironmaw1776]

Romans 5:6-11
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.



Christ died for us and saved us while we were enemies ... Not after we became his friends ... Christ died for the Ungodly, not for the Godly ...



Romans 5:12-17
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)



So the free gift much more abounds than the curse of death ... Everyone is a sinner and everyone dies because sin and death entered the world through one man. But the free gift is not like the curse, it abounds much more than the curse, to all that are in the curse and are ungodly and in fact enemies of God. So will the free gift of salvation truly abound much more than sin and death or not?


Romans 5:18-21
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



Does sin and death abound much more than the free gift of salvation? Most Christians teach that it does. Paul on the other hand teaches to the contrary, that the free gift of salvation abounds to the many much more than sin and death. It is clear as crystal in his words. Only a deluded or befuddled mind cannot comprehend this fact.

So wherever sin did or does abound unto death in every human being who has ever lived save for Christ, the free gift of the grace of God in Christ Jesus our lord will much more abound unto life ... Did sin abound to all, then salvation does much more abound to all, even the ungodly who are in fact enemies of God, for whom Christ Died.

God is the savior of all men through Christ our lord. All the enemies of God, all the ungodly, will be subjected to Christ, and will be filled by the presence of God in the end. God will be all and in all. There will not be any enemy whom Christ will not subject to himself. There will not be a single person who dies because of sin, that will not be made alive in Christ.

Accept this, it is the truth. If you do not accept this, it is because you prefer a lie to the truth. So your heart and mind has been deluded by your own desire to believe a lie ... A lie that has been perpetrated to the effect of making the word of God to little effect. The word of God came to accomplish Gods desire to save all men, yet you believe that the word of God did not accomplish his desire to save all men. Christ did accomplish the salvation for all, and it will be testified in due time.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

I always find it amusing how people excuse their desire for eternal torment/annihilation. Do you believe in eternal torment/annihilation? Do you have faith that it is true? Faith is the substance of things HOPED for ... So if you believe in and have faith in eternal torment/annihilation, it is quite clear that you hope that it is true ...

This isn't good enough Ironmaw. I don't preach what you preach. I preach Covenantal reconciliation. This is Biblical.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

I addressed this already. See opening statement.

Mat 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Context? Exegesis?

So we see god desires all people to be saved ... And we see that all things are possible for God. God can save all people ... God desires to save all people ... But will God save all people?

Exegesis?

Isaiah 55:11(YLT)
So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it.

It says here that the word of God(Christ himself) accomplishes the desire of God ... So God desires to save all people, God can save all people, and Gods word accomplishes what he can and does desire to do ... So it is written ...

Isa 55 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.

In regards to Israel, covenantal Israel, Old and New.

Expand please?

1 Tim 4:10-11

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

What is the context of this verse?

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

Do you believe God desires to save all people or not?

Of course, that is the purpose of Christ's death. In His covenant, you are saved, outside of it, you stand outside the gates. Rev 21

Do you believe God can save all people or not?

He did, within His covenant. This is the purpose of the gospel, to proclaim it so that that comes to fruition.

Do you believe Gods word will accomplish his desire or not?

He already did, in Christ. In Christ, you are reconciled.

Do you believe God is the savior of all people or not?

God is the savior of all who are in His covenant. You stand outside that covenant, you die. That is the messgae of the gospel.

Concerning the OP ... The same all who die in Adam, are the same all who will be made alive in Christ, are the same all who Christ will draw to himself, are the same all whom God is the savior of, are the same all who will bow their knee and confess Christ is their lord ...

John 12:32(YLT)
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Earth - γῆ gē - Land. Israel.

Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth

Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth

Stay in context.

You have shown, once again, that you cannot proved a sound esegesis of the scripture. Your view, hand picks verses out of context to suypport your paradigm, disregarding the enitre message.

Next please.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Actually this doesn't make sense.



You left out the remainder of the passage:

Now faith is the assurance of {things} hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval.

Is believing the same as faith? Is that what it says?

Faith is conviction. Defined as:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

To believe is defined as:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

As you can see this isn't the same. Believing in universalism as true, is to think it is true. Of course you may be wrong, as pointed out by the debate going on.
But that doesn't change the faith you have in God, does it? If you are wrong about universalism, does this make you wrong about the fact that there is the One true God and His Son Jesus Christ?

The question is can you be convicted of something that isn't true? Is that what deception is? To be convinced of false evidence? There is false faith .. There is hope for things that are not true ... There is falsified evidences. Does false faith make what is believed to be true but in actuality is not true become true? No, it only eventually is proven to in fact be false in the end.


We as Christians in general may be wrong about what we believe altogether ...

I know that i believe what i hope to be true ... If i truly believed that the bible taught eternal torment, i would not be Christian. I would have lost my faith in Christ, because i would not hope that what the bible taught was true. But, when i finally came to the crossroads of my faith when searching out the truths of these things, i discovered that, much to the contrary of what i had been taught to believe by the traditional orthodoxy, in fact the bible teaches something altogether different. The scriptures teach salvation for all ... That is why i put my faith in the scriptures, because it teaches what i in my heart am convicted of, and that is that God loves all, and will save all by Christ, one way or another. Either through faith in this life, or through judgment in the day of the lord.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

This isn't good enough Ironmaw. I don't preach what you preach. I preach Covenantal reconciliation. This is Biblical.



I addressed this already. See opening statement.




Context? Exegesis?



Exegesis?



Isa 55 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.

In regards to Israel, covenantal Israel, Old and New.

Expand please?
[color=#0000ff][u]


What is the context of this verse?

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.



Of course, that is the purpose of Christ's death. In His covenant, you are saved, outside of it, you stand outside the gates. Rev 21



He did, within His covenant. This is the purpose of the gospel, to proclaim it so that that comes to fruition.



He already did, in Christ. In Christ, you are reconciled.



God is the savior of all who are in His covenant. You stand outside that covenant, you die. That is the messgae of the gospel.



Earth - γῆ gē - Land. Israel.

Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth

Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth

Stay in context.

You have shown, once again, that you cannot proved a sound esegesis of the scripture. Your view, hand picks verses out of context to suypport your paradigm, disregarding the enitre message.

Next please.

You do not believe all people will be saved Sciotamicks ... You add to the word and call it "exegesis" ...

The bible says that God desires all people to be saved, you say god desires only all people in the covenant to be saved.

The bible says god is the savior of all men, especially believers ...

You say that god is not the savior of all men, but only of believers(those in the covenant).

The bible says salvation abounds much more than sin and death ...

You say that sin and death abounds much more than salvation.

I believe and am persuaded that you teach what is contrary to the word of God and that you add to the scritpures by your false "exegesis" ... I believe that you believe a lie, because you love a lie more than the truth. That is my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong ... But maybe, just maybe ... I'm right ... along with all the others who believe the same way i do.

The bible tells me to teach that God is the savior of all people, not only of believers, but especially of believers ...

Not only of those that are as you say "in the covenant", but of all ....


So i teach that god is the savior of all people, not just believers. If i am in error, it is only because i am doing what i was commanded to do. And the truth is, i desire to do what i am commanded to do. I desire all be saved, i am told all are saved, i believe all are saved, i teach all are saved. I give thanks to God for this good news ...

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Romans 5:6-11
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. ....

And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


Recieve it, and you live. Stay in the Covenantal context please.

Christ died for us and saved us while we were enemies ... Not after we became his friends ... Christ died for the Ungodly, not for the Godly ...

The whole purpose of grafting those into the covenant.

Romans 5:12-17
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

"Therefore" connects this section with what precedes it in verses 1-11. Paul's purpose in verses 1-11 is to show us the absolute certainty and finality of our salvation, and the ultimate proof of that is that we are "in Christ", in His life, and nothing can ever sever that connection.

Romans 5:10 (NKJV) For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by (in)His life.


As believers, we are "in Christ"; we share His life. But that at once suggests our previous position in Adam and what it caused, so Paul now precedes to deal with that. Paul is going to show that we have the same relationship now to the Lord Jesus Christ as we had before our salvation to Adam.

Paul wants us to understand the idea of imputation - credit being put to one's account - because the story of the entire human race can only be understood in terms of our relationship to Adam and the imputation of his sin to us.

Verse 12 starts out "Therefore, just as...."the "just as" suggests a comparison, but we notice that verse 12 does not complete the comparison, there is no "even so." He only gives us half of the comparison - Adam. Verses 13-17 are a parentheses for clarification. Verses 18 and 19 complete the comparison started in verse 12.

Let's read it that way, skipping verses 13-18a: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned; 18b even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

One man did one thing resulting in sin and death; the other man did something else, resulting in justification and life.
"Just as" the one act of Adam affected every member of the human race, "even so" the one act of Jesus Christ affects every member of the new covenant community.

The word "one" is used 12 times in verses 12-19. The emphasis in this section is on how one man's act affects all he represents.

Two representatives: Adam & Christ

Two acts: sin & obedience

Two results: death & life

Two races: human & elect- believers

In Adam we have; sin and death, and in Christ we have obedience and life. Do you want to know why the world is like it is - you're going to find out right now. This is the key to understanding human history. It is essential to our theology that we understand these verses. You mess up here, and your whole theology will be off.

Romans 5:18-21
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

First we are reminded of what happened to us in Adam. One sin of Adam resulted in all men being condemned. Paul is saying that because of that one sin of Adam the whole of mankind are "treated" as sinners. That is what he said in verse 12. Then verse 19 goes further than 18, and it says that not only were all "treated" as sinners, but all were "made" or "regarded" as sinners.

Romans 5:19 (NKJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

The Greek word for "made" is kathistemi, it means: "to set down in the rank of, or to place in the category of, to appoint to a particular class." This word is used in:

Luke 12:14 (NKJV) But He said to him, "Man, who made Me a judge or an arbitrator over you?"

Jesus is asking, "Who appointed me, who constituted me judge?" The word "made" is not causative, but declarative. Those in Adam were declared sinners. It is imperative that we understand this: "By one man's disobedience many were regarded as sinners." He doesn't say, "made sinful", but "made sinners."

The whole human race has been constituted legally as sinners. That is our judicial standing before God. And it is based entirely and solely on Adam's one act of disobedience.

Because of Adam's one sin, we are all made sinners, this is God's judicial act. He decreed that the whole of humanity should be represented by the first man and should suffer the consequences of that man's actions. We all sinned in Adam and with Adam because he was our Federal head or representative, and, therefore, God pronounced all to be sinners. That is one side, but thank God there is another side to the parallel - "even so". By the righteous act of one man, the Lord Jesus Christ, came justification that leads to life.

Does sin and death abound much more than the free gift of salvation? Most Christians teach that it does. Paul on the other hand teaches to the contrary, that the free gift of salvation abounds to the many much more that sin and death. It is clear as crystal in his words. Only a deluded or befuddled mind cannot comprehend this fact.

Your theology and exegesis is way off, as I have already shown.
Scripture is covenantal, and it is in that covenant, that we are reconciled.
One man's sin sent mankind out from that covenant, and Christ payment, brings those back into that covenant.

Profess, believe and walk in faith.
Unless the ungodly turn to God, they are dead.

[sciotamicks]

Ironmaw,

I need you to follow proper debate guidelines. Quote each of my words and refute them accordingly. You are all over the place.

If you can't do this, I can't address you so that the points do not get lost or missed.

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Who ever said he did?

You reword "resurrection of the dead" into the resurrecton of only saints/believers/those in covenant.

Paul is speaking of, the dead ones, the saints. To answer your question, yes. The believers.

See?

This is the context.

Already addressed. Paul uses specific examples to prove that there is a resurrection of the dead. So did Christ. You are pointing to the specific examples to limit what Paul meant by resurrection of the dead. The context is also "...the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand..." What did Paul preach about the resurrection of the dead?

• Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Which are those that sleep. This isn't about the wicked in death, this is about believers, saints, those that believed in Christ and God with all their heart, etc. Your view is flawed.

So you claim... but "the resurrection of the dead " is about just what it says it is about. Dead people rising. Just and unjust.

Again readers of the forum, a universalist not applying proper contextual arrangements of the text by imposing their rules and paradigm into the text.

Why would I want to apply your "textual arrangements" when they lead you to directly contradict plain scriptures:

Christ died for every man ----> Christ did not die for every man
God wills all men to be saved ---> God does not desire all men to be saved

This all, is ONLY those that believe. Those in Covenant.

Enemies of the gospel do not believe the gospel, yet they somehow find themselves under the umbrella of the promises of God that are without repentance.

• Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Did I say Covenant?

Argument Ad Nauseam

Christ died for those in His covenant. He died for all who enter into the Covenant. That's it.

Christ died for evey man.

• Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

• Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Now you show me a scripture that says "Christ died only for so and so" or "Christ did not die for so and so".

Stay in context please. What generation is he speaking about? Yours?

Deflection. My argument had nothing to do with which generation Christ was speaking about. I was simply givng an example of a proof where the thesis is general but the argument (and thus the context) contains specific cases. I could just as easily have used a math proof to illustrate my point.

Upon entering the covenant, you are rewarded the gift that He gave. But if you don't, well the scripture is plain, you stand outside of the city. The living are those In Christ. The Tree of Life is in the Garden, a place where Adam was brought into, and then cast out of. In Christ, we are brought back into that Garden, where the Tree of Life is.

Yes, of course.

You preach another gospel.

I preach that "Christ died for every man" which is scripture. Apparently you preach that Christ did not die for every man.

Without Christ. Dead, in Adam.

Of course. You already know we believe that. We believe "As in Adam all die." It's just the we also believe "even so in Christ all will be made alive"

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come

You reword "resurrection of the dead" into the resurrecton of only saints/believers/those in covenant.

1 Corinthians 15 is about the resurrection of the dead, specifically about those that Paul is speaking to and their concern for their loved ones in the faith. This is the context. Detouring from that, puts the conclusion in error.

Already addressed. Paul uses specific examples to prove that there is a resurrection of the dead. So did Christ. You are pointing to the specific examples to limit what Paul meant by resurrection of the dead. The context is also ".

I am pointing to the context of the entire discourse.
Your view is piece-mealing the scripture to fit your paradigm.

..the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand..."

Colossians 1:18 (NKJV) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

In verse 18 Paul affirms Christ's superiority and supremacy over a new creation, the church. Here the apostle moves from the cosmological to the soteriological, because the Colossians must also recognize that the Creator of the cosmos is also supreme head of the church

Colossians 1:24 (NKJV) I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church

Context is everything. Again, you are straying from the message. THis message is to the Church.

What did Paul preach about the resurrection of the dead?

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

What did John preach about the resurrection of the dead?

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So you claim... but "the resurrection of the dead " is about just what it says it is about. Dead people rising. Just and unjust.

Yes, as we saw in Revelation 20.

Why would I want to apply your "textual arrangements" when they lead you to directly contradict plain scriptures:

If you don;t want to debate properly, that's fine. I will ignore your posts. But this is a debate, not a discussion...hence...Debate.
We debate the views that are placed in the thread, piece by piece, so the ideas do not get lost or missed

Enemies of the gospel do not believe the gospel, yet they somehow find themselves under the umbrella of the promises of God that are without repentance.

• Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

All mankind is not Israel. Jew and Gentile, In Christ is.

Christ died for evey man.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Now you show me a scripture that says "Christ died only for so and so" or "Christ did not die for so and so".

One word. Kosmos.

Kosmos - Covenantal world order and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

For God so loved the (kosmos) He gave His only begotten Son.

In the Covenant, you are saved from death.

Deflection. My argument had nothing to do with which generation Christ was speaking about. I was simply givng an example of a proof where the thesis is general but the argument (and thus the context) contains specific cases. I could just as easily have used a math proof to illustrate my point.

Exactly. Your argument was truned against you in that you chose one specific verse to prove your case and disregarded the enitre context. An infamous Universalist tactic, which is easily dismantled.

I preach that "Christ died for every man" which is scripture. Apparently you preach that Christ did not die for every man.

I preach that Christ reconciled the covenant God had instituted His people with. The whole premise of the gospel is to preach that covenant, so that people can enter into it. What you preach is that apart from that belief in the gospel, you are saved anyway. Which is very far from the truth.