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Gideon said, interesting, why is Judas in Hell, the bible tells us this? Why is the rich man in hell and why do we read about those whom will suffer eternal judgement for rejecting God's grace? Why does Revelation, and the entire bible tell us so? I do not know what BIBLE you are reading, but it certainly is not the same one I read. It is not a matter of interpreting, but rather as being able to see written truths. THERE are sheeps and their are goats. Be that as it is; no one can change this. One whom professes false doctrine is a goat. A car can be orange, but some may believe it is green. THis does not make the orange car green.
Where were you hiding Gideon? We needed you.. Thank you for providing Truth
Gideon said, interesting, why is Judas in Hell, the bible tells us this? Why is the rich man in hell and why do we read about those whom will suffer eternal judgement for rejecting God's grace? Why does Revelation, and the entire bible tell us so? I do not know what BIBLE you are reading, but it certainly is not the same one I read. It is not a matter of interpreting, but rather as being able to see written truths. THERE are sheeps and their are goats. Be that as it is; no one can change this. One whom professes false doctrine is a goat. A car can be orange, but some may believe it is green. THis does not make the orange car green.
I believe that the difficulty you are having understanding the truth of universal reconciliation boils down to two things ...
1. The various mistranslations of most contemporary versions of the bible, especially the mistranslation of the words sheol, hades, geheena, and tartarus, and the words aion and its adjective forms aionion and aionios.
2. Your indoctrination which is a product of the traditions of men in the form of the fundamentalist orthodox corporate religion of organized Christianity.
If you were really interested in knowing the truths of these things you would research them diligently with an open mind before deciding what you believe. However, so long as you are unwilling to open your mind and heart to these teachings and search out their validity in earnest without presupposing them to be false on account of your programing, you will continue to be unable to comprehend the greater mysteries of the Word of reconciliation delivered to the apostles by Christ.
I hope you take the time to investigate these things with an open mind, however only God can bring you to a place in your life were this will be possible.
Pro 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal and thing, and the honor of kings to search out a matter ...
Do you really think that God places the greatest mysteries of his truth on the surface of the scriptures to be readily and easily understood by any and everyone at any time?
Don't you realize that Jesus spoke in parables in order to conceal the truth from the people to whom he spoke them, so that in hearing they would not be able to understand and so that they would not turn and repent and be healed?
Mat 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Such a parable is the rich man and Lazarus ... It is not to be taken literally. I believe that the fact that you understand it literally shows your lack of understanding concerning these things ...
Oh and by the way, no where in the bible does it say that Judas is in hell ... It says he went to his own place, which you then interpret to mean hell. Such are many of your interpretations which you believe to be taught in scripture because of your traditional programming. I know all the doctrines you believe to be true and could argue them as well as you or anyone else. I was a fundamentalist dispensationalist for 30 years. My father was a southern baptist minister and taught me everything he knew. By the grace of God, I have since grown to understand the truth concerning these things for what they actually are.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-19-2010 at 08:24 PM..
Did you ever think it is because they preach another Jesus?
I'm uncomfortable with that statement, Raelyn. I have been accused of "preaching another Jesus" or "believing in a false Christ," or "following a counterfeit Savior" so many times I have lost count. It's not something I feel right about accusing others of. I find it to be not only hurtful, but an unnecessary part of respectful debate.
1. I believe in the Jesus Christ who was with His Father in the beginning, and that He created this universe we live in.
2. I believe in the Jesus Christ whose coming was prophesied by the Old Testament Prophets.
3. I believe in the Jesus Christ who was born to a pure virgin in the small middle-eastern town of Bethlehem as the Only Begotten Son of the Eternal Father.
4. I believe in the Jesus Christ who preached a gospel of love (especially for one's enemies), forgiveness, mercy and grace.
5. I believe in a the Jesus Christ who established His great Church and left it in the hands of twelve men He personally chose to lead it in His absence.
6. I believe in the Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life, never committing a single sin.
7. I believe in the Jesus Christ who was abused and tortured by His enemies and who died that I might be forgiven of my sins and be reconciled to my Father in Heaven.
8. I believe in the Jesus Christ who asked His Father to forgive even those who killed Him.
9. I believe in the Jesus Christ who rose on the third day after His death to be the firstfruits of them that slept.
10. I believe in the Jesus Christ whose resurrection guarantees that all will be resurrected.
11. I believe in the Jesus Christ who will pay for the sins of those who accept His atoning sacrifice.
12. I believe in the Jesus Christ to whom all will eventually bow in humble submission, even those who were too proud to accept His Atonement and who consequently had to endure the punishment for their own sins before forgiveness was granted.
I suspect that you pretty much agree with me on the first eleven of these points, and that if you disagree, it's with a minor qualification or two. Does the fact that we don't see eye to eye on one point mean that one of us is "preaching another Jesus" or "believing in a false Christ," or "following a counterfeit Savior"? Or could it just mean that one of us is wrong about one point of doctrine?
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If you don't believe me than print out the threads and the posts and compare what some are saying and others are saying. Put them in piles if you must. But when you study the things that they say, confirm what they say by having a bible and concordance handy. Ask God to speak Truth about this and He will, if you ask Him with sincerity of heart. Also ask him to remove the blinders from you eyes for it doesn't hurt to do that.
I challenge you to do this and you will find who knows truth and who doesn't.
I already have, Raelyn. If you have, too, where does that leave us?
Matthew 25:41(Weymouth New Testament)
"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.
1 Cor 3:15
If any one's work is burnt up, he will suffer the loss of it; yet he will himself be rescued, but only, as it were, by passing through the fire.
Aionios does not mean eternal, it is the adjective form of the word aion, from whence the English word eon is derived, which means age. Aionios means pertaining to the ages, and represents a quality and not a quantity.
Sorry, you could not be more incorrect. It means eternal or everlasting, without end. Three reliable sources tell me this: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, The Student's Complete Vocabulary Guide to the Greek New Testament, and Basics of Biblical Greek (William D. Mounce).
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Those who are do not know Christ will have to pass through the fire of the ages and will be saved thereby.
That is not at all the import of the text from 1 Corinthians 3, to which you are alluding. That text does not teach in any way that unbelievers will be purged by this fire. Here is more of the passage:
"11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-
13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done."
The context makes it clear that Paul is speaking of how we build upon the foundation of Christ that has already been laid. This language cannot refer to unbelievers, since unbelievers do not build in any manner whatsoever upon Christ.
Moreover, the passage in Matthew 25 states clearly, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into leternal life” (v. 46). Punishment can hardly refer to being purged, especially since they are directly contrasted with the righteous.
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There is no such thing as Christ or God being unrelenting ... Will the wrath of Gods fiery judgments come upon the wicked and unbelieving? Indeed ... Will it last for ever? Of course not ...
I understand that the doctrine of eternal punishment is a hard doctrine. But we need to submit to Scripture.
Yes I do. I believe that He was God before His birth in Bethlehem, that He was God during His mortal life, that He is God today, and that He will be God forever. What I don't believe is that He is God the Father. I believe He sits on the right hand of His Father in Heaven today, and I don't know how one person has ever managed to sit on his own right hand side. In short, I am not a Trinitarian. I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one" but I don't interpret that as being part of a single substance.
I'm uncomfortable with that statement, Raelyn. I have been accused of "preaching another Jesus" or "believing in a false Christ," or "following a counterfeit Savior" so many times I have lost count. It's not something I feel right about accusing others of. I find it to be not only hurtful, but an unnecessary part of respectful debate.
1. I believe in the Jesus Christ who was with His Father in the beginning, and that He created this universe we live in.
2. I believe in the Jesus Christ whose coming was prophesied by the Old Testament Prophets.
3. I believe in the Jesus Christ who was born to a pure virgin in the small middle-eastern town of Bethlehem as the Only Begotten Son of the Eternal Father.
4. I believe in the Jesus Christ who preached a gospel of love (especially for one's enemies), forgiveness, mercy and grace.
5. I believe in a the Jesus Christ who established His great Church and left it in the hands of twelve men He personally chose to lead it in His absence.
6. I believe in the Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life, never committing a single sin.
7. I believe in the Jesus Christ who was abused and tortured by His enemies and who died that I might be forgiven of my sins and be reconciled to my Father in Heaven.
8. I believe in the Jesus Christ who asked His Father to forgive even those who killed Him.
9. I believe in the Jesus Christ who rose on the third day after His death to be the firstfruits of them that slept.
10. I believe in the Jesus Christ whose resurrection guarantees that all will be resurrected.
11. I believe in the Jesus Christ who will pay for the sins of those who accept His atoning sacrifice.
12. I believe in the Jesus Christ to whom all will eventually bow in humble submission, even those who were too proud to accept His Atonement and who consequently had to endure the punishment for their own sins before forgiveness was granted.
I suspect that you pretty much agree with me on the first eleven of these points, and that if you disagree, it's with a minor qualification or two. Does the fact that we don't see eye to eye on one point mean that one of us is "preaching another Jesus" or "believing in a false Christ," or "following a counterfeit Savior"? Or could it just mean that one of us is wrong about one point of doctrine?
I already have, Raelyn. If you have, too, where does that leave us?
Number 12 is false. By the time those people will eventually bow it will be too late for them. Just like in Noah's day...there were those who waited until the last minute, mocked Noah as he built the ark and mocked God.
They didn't believe the flood was coming and by the time they realized that Noah was following God's plan it was too late. They perished and died. Same in the last days. God will be known to all men simply because there will be NO getting away from the truth. But it doesn't mean that they all will be saved.
You then do not believe in hell or eternal punishment???
If you are referring to me, Raelyn, I'm a girl like you, not a boy!
Sorry, doesn't really matter, this is a spiritual thing where neither male or female are any different. But thanks for pointing that out.
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