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You seem to be talking about believers. I'm concerned with the future of the unbeliever. But first, let's talk about the believer. Assuming you're one, if you die with some unrepented sin in your life, are you going to the lake of fire to have that unrepented sin removed?
Our entire purpose is to be with God. Paul said "Our God is a consuming fire." We are to be perfect as God the Father is perfect. Since we will NOT have a physical body with pain sensors, etc. . . . fire represents no threat. There can be no pain without the pain sensors of a living physical body. The burning entails nothing more than a re-radiation of the imperfect energy as heat, light, and other forms. Of course, there is a form of pain exclusive to consciousness, namely regret. But in this instance it is in no way a form of punishment . . . just refinement. Zechariah 13:9 (King James Version)
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
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Now about the unbeliever: What about those who reject Christ their whole lives? What is the purpose of the lake of fire for them?
Our entire purpose is to be with God. Paul said "Our God is a consuming fire." We are to be perfect as God the Father is perfect. Since we will NOT have a physical body with pain sensors, etc. . . . fire represents no threat. There can be no pain without the pain sensors of a living physical body. The burning entails nothing more than a re-radiation of the imperfect energy as heat, light, and other forms. Of course, there is a form of pain exclusive to consciousness, namely regret. But in this instance it is in no way a form of punishment . . . just refinement. Zechariah 13:9 (King James Version)
You didn't answer my question. I asked, "Assuming you're one [a believer], if you die with some unrepented sin in your life, are you going to the lake of fire to have that unrepented sin removed?"
I didn't ask you about pain sensors, what kind of body we will have, and the other things you brought up.
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Now about the unbeliever: What about those who reject Christ their whole lives? What is the purpose of the lake of fire for them?
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The purpose is the same for ALL.
Again, you did not answer my question. I wonder why. I'll ask it again, but this time I will make it much simpler for you:
Are those who die in their sins purified of their sins in the lake of fire?
The lake of fire is a symbol. There are only two things that need to happen in order to be saved:
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
All will confess that Jesus is Lord:
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
As for believing:
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
We are blessed because we believe by faith. They will believe when they see Christ.
As for the scriptures you wanted, read all of 1 Peter 4. Some key verses:
Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.... Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you...For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God.
So none of this pertains to salvation and purification in the lake of fire. Peter is solely speaking of the resurreciton of the dead, an event which is:
eggizō - near - rooted in - eggys - near, of place and position of time
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
Fulfilled. That kingdom is here now. All were judged based on their works, even the ungodly without Christ, but if they were good, and loved, they inherited life, but those that were not, inherited death.
Sea - Gentile Dead
Death and Hades - Old Covenant Jewish Dead
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he haddone.
You didn't answer my question. I asked, "Assuming you're one [a believer], if you die with some unrepented sin in your life, are you going to the lake of fire to have that unrepented sin removed?"
I am a believer and have no "unrepented sins." IF I did they would need to be refined out of me.
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I didn't ask you about pain sensors, what kind of body we will have, and the other things you brought up.
Well it seemed relevant to point out to all the "Eternal Torturers" out there . . . are you one?
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Again, you did not answer my question. I wonder why. I'll ask it again, but this time I will make it much simpler for you:
Are those who die in their sins purified of their sins in the lake of fire?
Refined! Yes . . . NOT saved (Jesus already did that for us ALL) . . . as you seem anxious to imply so you can reiterate your charge of a second gospel and anathema.
So none of this pertains to salvation and purification in the lake of fire. Peter is solely speaking of the resurreciton of the dead, an event which is:
eggizō - near - rooted in - eggys - near, of place and position of time
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
Fulfilled. That kingdom is here now. All were judged based on their works, even the ungodly without Christ, but if they were good, and loved, they inherited life, but those that were not, inherited death.
Sea - Gentile Dead
Death and Hades - Old Covenant Jewish Dead
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he haddone.
It actually does. You also didn't explain it at all you just pulled another verse up and said fulfilled as you;ve conditioned yourself to do.
Anyone can make prophecy say anything if you just start interpreting symbols left and right how you wish.
It actually does. You also didn't explain it at all you just pulled another verse up and said fulfilled as you;ve conditioned yourself to do.
Anyone can make prophecy say anything if you just start interpreting symbols left and right how you wish.
Actually, no, I defined one word that has thrown the entire futurist chruch into denial....Peter, John, and Paul all said soon, at hand, which all denotes "very soon." You can believe soon means 2000 years+, but I take the scripture for what it says, not what I want it to say. But that's fine, go on believing the Prophetic Pundit Headlines, where the Palestianians Christians are persecuted for their Ethnicity by the Zionist regime of Israel...they lost their lamp, and the kingdom was turned over to another people who bore the fruit, and Jew and Gentile became one church, One Israel - "where God Rules", under God, with Christ as our High Priest and King......but hey, what do I know?
They were stained with the blood of the prophets, but then again, isn't that about the Catholic Papacy? Or the Chinese, Islam, Soviets, or Hindu extremists? The symbols point to the orginal sons of Satan, and that was the Apostate Jews...none other.
Eternal torment.
God is going to eternally torture..
This belief...
The look in Jesus' eyes...
when you stand face to face..
and he asks you "how could you have believed that about me, my child?"
"How could you have ever imagined that I would do something so horrific? After what I did on the cross... how could that thought ever have entered your mind.."
The look in His eyes... I don't think I'd ever want to see that look.
My beautiful Creator's character is being crucified every single moment by people who claim to love Him. By people who claim to follow Him. If you love someone, you don't crucify their character. You don't attribute atrocities to Him.
The hairs on our head... he knows how many.
When a small, insignificant little sparrow falls to the ground, he attends it's funeral. He notes it's death.
We are worth many, many sparrows...
Just as Jesus said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do.."
Such is true of those who continually crucify His character.
Father will one day wrap His loving arms around them and show them the glorious truth of His everlasting, unending, magnificent love.
So, in reality...I suppose in the end, it doesn't matter how much people fight against this aspect of His beautiful character.... Those things are on the PATH to DESTRUCTION. (Wide is that path, for sure... there is so much on that path.) God will repair what is in a person's heart that is keeping them from seeing His full beauty, and God will draw them near and His love will set them free. This makes me smile inside and makes my heart full of happiness. It's hard to listen to the terrible things that are being attributed to my beautiful Creator, to our Saviour. But His love will wash it all away someday. One day, these things will be destroyed when His love is shown for what it truly is. An absolute masterpiece. Every knee WILL BOW... and He will be ALL in ALL and we will ALL be in absolute AWE.
If anyone out there is struggling and feels that God is not love, or that God is evil or that God is not to be trusted, or if you are angry at God...please direct message me. I've been in a lot of those same places. I won't preach at you. I ALREADY know that you are in good hands. I don't FEAR for your soul thining you are going to end up in some torture chamber. I know God loves you. The hard part sometimes is actually getting to the point where you can FEEL IT. I do want you to know that God IS LOVE and if I can help someone else out there by sharing a little of what my path in this world has been like.. maybe we can share together. We all have our own path to walk. Maybe my path and your path will intersect... maybe not. But maybe so.
Actually, no, I defined one word that has thrown the entire futurist chruch into denial....Peter, John, and Paul all said soon, at hand, which all denotes "very soon." You can believe soon means 2000 years+, but I take the scripture for what it says, not what I want it to say. But that's fine, go on believing the Prophetic Pundit Headlines, where the Palestianians Christians are persecuted for their Ethnicity by the Zionist regime of Israel...they lost their lamp, and the kingdom was turned over to another people who bore the fruit, and Jew and Gentile became one church, One Israel, under God, with Christ as our High Priest and King......but hey, what do I know?
They were stained with the blood of the prophets, but then again, isn't that about the Catholic Papacy? Or the Chinese, Islam, Soviets, or Hindu extremists? The symbols point to the orginal sons of Satan, and that was the Apostate Jews...none other.
I don't believe any of that, I'm not a futurist, and I also understand what the word soon means and it goes precisely with what I believe. However, I do not interpret symbols, I find scripture that does.
Example:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
I don't believe any of that, I'm not a futurist, and I also understand what the word soon means and it goes precisely with what I believe. However, I do not interpret symbols, I find scripture that does.
Example:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Ahhh the two witnesses.
Law and the Prophets
Symbolized in Moses and Elijah - representing that of the above
Following Christ’s transfiguration, Moses and Elijah, prophets of the Old Covenant, appear and speak with Christ. The details of that conversation are not given in Matthew. However, in reading the other accounts, Luke records the specific subject of their conversation. They spoke concerning Jesus’ death which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Interestingly, the word “death” is not our usual word “thanatos” but rather, the word “exodus,” the same as that of the Sacred book.
The same occurs in Revelation in the Two Witnesses, the Law and the Prophets, witnessing for Christ in the last days prior to the Parousia.
The events which followed Jesus’ death and resurrection as outlined in the New Testament document the soon to come parousia and judgment as expressed in the events of the transfiguration. It is more compelling evidence that these events occurred in the first century generation.
Exo 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:23-24 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
The word does not necessarily imply that. The word used in Hebrews 12--paideia--refers to corrective discipline. That is not the word used, for example, in Mt. 25:46, which speaks of the eternal punishment.
Aside from that, your very answer is why I say it is another gospel. If Christ himself took all the punishment for sin, then no further "correction" is necessary. UR thus holds forth an additional means of being forgiven.
Jremy, of course "correction" is always necessary. Christ is the atonement for the sins of the world. God has already forgiven us all for every sin we will commit. Yet the people are not instantly righteous - we still sin.
There are plenty of Christians who commit sin - everyday. But take a big example. A Christian man falls into temptation and cheats on his wife and is found out. Does he need correction? YES. How is the man corrected? He will suffer humiliation, guilt, possibly lose his family, kids, etc. He will go through pain, "punishment", and correction. All these consequences he will experience ultimately will serve to correct his behavior. And if he's not corrected in this life, he will be corrected later in the lake of fire. (Please give up this idea of the lake of fire as a literal torture chamber).
Now did Jesus still die for this man who commited this sin? Yes of course. Christ died for sinners. He takes (present tense, ie. "is taking") the mans sin away. The way the mans sin will be removed is ultimately through this process of correction.
Christ did not die so we could get away scott free with our sins. Christ did not die so we wouldn't have to be corrected. Christ died to take away the sins, not the correction. That is why we have all these passages that speak about being salted with fire, being tried by fire, being saved by fire, and being judged by fire (yes this includes the lake of fire). It is all judgment that serves to make a person righteous. The one who is doing it is Christ: Christ is the fire.
Now believers are judged by fire (1 Cor 3:12-15, Mark 9:49, etc). So are unbelievers:
Rev 20:13 ... and each person was judged according to what he had done...
How is each person judged? Answer: IN FIRE.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Everyone is judged by the fire of God, so that we all are "salted with fire", "tried with fire", "refined by fire", and ultimately "saved by fire".
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Eternal torment.
