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Then it is truly another gospel, and those who bring it are anathema.
The saving is done by Jesus . . . NOT by you or me or anyone else. Nothing WE DO affects the saving . . . only the consequences of our "works." Works have nothing to do with our salvation but they have consequences unrelated to salvation that are NOT punishments but corrections. IF there is a false gospel here . . it would be yours because it places the responsibility on US to achieve salvation. That is NOT the good news!
The saving is done by Jesus . . . NOT by you or me or anyone else. Nothing WE DO affects the saving . . . only the consequences of our "works." Works have nothing to do with our salvation but they have consequences unrelated to salvation that are NOT punishments but corrections. IF there is a false gospel here . . it would be yours because it places the responsibility on US to achieve salvation. That is NOT the good news!
Interesting. How quickly you turn against your own standard, as expressed in this earlier statement you made:
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There is ONLY ONE gospel . . . all differences are of human origin and arrogance. It is arrogant to think the YOUR interpretation of the gospel is the only RIGHT interpretation.
Besides that, I've never told you what I think the gospel is, so it's your assumption that I "place the responsibility on US to achieve salvation" (your words). Quite to the contrary, I maintain that salvation is not by works but by faith alone through grace alone on the basis of the merits of Christ alone. UR overturns this by saying that forgiveness can be obtained in the future by having one's sins purified in the Lake of Fire. So, according to the universalist "gospel," there is a "Plan B" that God uses for those who have rejected Christ and refused to repent (i.e., they've rebelled) their whole lives. They get to be purified of their sins. That amounts to an additional means of being saved. It is another gospel.
Also, your theology is faulty. You said:
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Works have nothing to do with our salvation but they have consequences unrelated to salvation that are NOT punishments but corrections.
Matthew 25:46 says that the goats--those who are not sheep, mind you--will go into eternal punishment (κόλασιν αἰώνιον). The statement you made above regarding works applied only to the believer:
"5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. (Hebrews 12, ESV)
Corrective discipline is for the children, not for those who are "illegitimate children and not sons."
I encourage you to become better grounded in God's Word.
You say they are punished. For what reason are they punished? I ask this because:
If universalism teaches that they are punished in order to put away their sin so as to be reconciled to God, then it holds forth another way to be saved in addition to faith in Christ.
If universalism does not teach that this future punishment is for this purpose, then what is the punishment for?
The punishment is for correction. The word in the greek actually implies this another reason aionios can't mean eternal in that case). We are currently being corrected by this fire in order to put away sin (Peter writes extensively on this). This is not how we are reconciled to God, however, so there is no reason to assume this is how they are reconciled. They are saved by Christ alone as well.
We are currently being corrected by this fire in order to put away sin (Peter writes extensively on this). This is not how we are reconciled to God, however, so there is no reason to assume this is how they are reconciled. They are saved by Christ alone as well.
So you are contradicting the UR paradigm of correciton in the Lake of Fire? I would like to see the scripture in Peter's epistles you are referring to.
So you are contradicting the UR paradigm of correciton in the Lake of Fire? I would like to see the scripture in Peter's epistles you are referring to.
The lake of fire is a symbol. There are only two things that need to happen in order to be saved:
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
All will confess that Jesus is Lord:
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
As for believing:
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
We are blessed because we believe by faith. They will believe when they see Christ.
As for the scriptures you wanted, read all of 1 Peter 4. Some key verses:
Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.... Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you...For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God.
Interesting. How quickly you turn against your own standard, as expressed in this earlier statement you made:
I will just assume you missed the "IF"in front of that statement.
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Besides that, I've never told you what I think the gospel is, so it's your assumption that I "place the responsibility on US to achieve salvation" (your words). Quite to the contrary, I maintain that salvation is not by works but by faith alone through grace alone on the basis of the merits of Christ alone. UR overturns this by saying that forgiveness can be obtained in the future by having one's sins purified in the Lake of Fire.
Wrong. Sins are no longer an issue for salvation . . . Christ covered them ALL.BUT . . . any not corrected ("un-repented") in this life still have consequences because they indicate failures of our Spirit. Those consequences are what our spirits must deal with upon our rebirth as Spirit after death . . . IF we have NOT addressed them here in repentance.
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So, according to the universalist "gospel," there is a "Plan B" that God uses for those who have rejected Christ and refused to repent (i.e., they've rebelled) their whole lives. They get to be purified of their sins. That amounts to an additional means of being saved. It is another gospel.
There is no Plan B for salvation. It is NOT another gospel since the salvation is by Jesus alone . . . the consequences of our "works" are a separate issue involving purification of any "un-repented" sins.
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Also, your theology is faulty.
Careful . . I'm not the one who is interpreting scripture with the WRONG CONTEXT about the TRUE NATURE of God and accepting two diametrically opposed natures supposedly in the same God. That's faulty.
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Matthew 25:46 says that the goats--those who are not sheep, mind you--will go into eternal punishment (κόλασιν αἰώνιον). The statement you made above regarding works applied only to the believer:
Corrective discipline is for the children, not for those who are "illegitimate children and not sons."
Those who think so much of themselves as to believe they are among a special and exclusive group in the eyes of God are the ones who are in for the rudest awakening after death, JRemy . . . not those of us who realize that God's love is unconditional for us ALL!. Elect schmelect, chosen unchosen, balderdash! We are ALL children of God expected to " grow up" and mature spiritually into adults . . . not obedient pets or fearful followers blackmailed into submission by threat of punishment.
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I encourage you to become better grounded in God's Word.
With all due modesty . . . I don't believe that is possible. I have decades of grounding.
The punishment is for correction. The word in the greek actually implies this another reason aionios can't mean eternal in that case).
The word does not necessarily imply that. The word used in Hebrews 12--paideia--refers to corrective discipline. That is not the word used, for example, in Mt. 25:46, which speaks of the eternal punishment.
Aside from that, your very answer is why I say it is another gospel. If Christ himself took all the punishment for sin, then no further "correction" is necessary. UR thus holds forth an additional means of being forgiven.
Wrong. Sins are no longer an issue for salvation . . . Christ covered them ALL.BUT . . . any not corrected ("un-repented") in this life still have consequences because they indicate failures of our Spirit.
You are contradicting yourself because your theology is all confused. If Christ covered them all, as you say, and which I agree with, then whatever we do--or don't do--does not affect that.
We are saved not only by the removal of sins by Christ's atoning work, but also by the imputation of his righteousness, as Paul described in Phil. 3:
7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
To say that there is some future remedial punishment that will correct us of "unrepented" sins is to say that Christ's removal of sin was not complete and that his imputed righteousness is not enough. Therefore, UR presents another gospel.
I recommend that you purchase a good systematic theology and, along with an open Bible, study it diligently.
You are contradicting yourself because your theology is all confused. If Christ covered them all, as you say, and which I agree with, then whatever we do--or don't do--does not affect that.
We are saved not only the removal of sins by Christ's atoning work, but also by the imputation of his righteousness, as Paul described in Phil. 3:
7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
To say that there is some future remedial punishment that will correct us of "unrepented" sins is to say that Christ's removal of sin was not complete and that his imputed righteousness is not enough. Therefore, UR presents another gospel.
Sin no longer has any power to affect our salvation, period. You seem to think that our salvation and the achievement of eternal life is ALL that matters. It isn't. Thanks to Jesus . . We are ALL saved and will have an eternal life. It is the quality and character of that life that is the focus of the removal of un-repented sin. Unrepented sin does not threaten our salvation (having eternal life) . . . that is a done deal. But it does threaten our position in that eternal life because it represents imperfections in our Spirit that must be addressed . . . they have consequences. We must be perfect as God the Father is perfect.
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I recommend that you purchase a good systematic theology and, along with an open Bible, study it diligently.
I am quite satisfied with my scholarship and my relationship with Christ, thanks.
Sin no longer has any power to affect our salvation, period. You seem to think that our salvation and the achievement of eternal life is ALL that matters. It isn't. Thanks to Jesus . . We are ALL saved and will have an eternal life. It is the quality and character of that life that is the focus of the removal of un-repented sin. Unrepented sin does not threaten our salvation (having eternal life) . . . that is a done deal. But it does threaten our position in that eternal life because it represents imperfections in our Spirit that must be addressed . . . they have consequences. We must be perfect as God the Father is perfect.
You seem to be talking about believers. I'm concerned with the future of the unbeliever. But first, let's talk about the believer. Assuming you're one, if you die with some unrepented sin in your life, are you going to the lake of fire to have that unrepented sin removed?
Now about the unbeliever: What about those who reject Christ their whole lives? What is the purpose of the lake of fire for them?
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