The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment (LONG) (blessings, Lord, preferences, Zen)

[Jrhockney]

Originally Posted by plain and simple

I wouldn't dare trust my eternity to the words and wisdom of men, including myself. You're a braver man than I.

It shouldn't take much bravery to consider the possibility that your translation is flawed and that God is not psychotic by any known human standard of psychiatry or justice. Its one thing to believe "hard truths" in the bible...its another thing to believe 'truths' that are insane on an infinite scale...which is the reality of what the creation of an eternal torture hell for flawed and "born into sin" creations would represent. God made the rules (which again includes "one sin damning all humanity and its offspring who don't accept Jesus"...who most of them have never even heard of thanks to their culture or place of birth) and creation and set the penalties and then reveals himself only in creation (eventhough he made the science of it all viewable and confusing) and only literally reveals himself in extremely limited circumstances...

..if this is really all about "fire insurance," your should be warned...Islam has a much worse hell as described in the Koran in store for you if you don't convert!! (Dun dun Duuuuunnnnn!) One religions Saint is another religions eternal torture destined infidel

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by plain and simple

Then you are calling the scriptures, God's Word, "absurd" and your beef is with Him. I have given scripture after scripture to support every statement I've made. Where's your evidence of the non-existence of hell or eternal damnation?

You claim that Jesus saves us from eternal hell,where have you posted scriptures to support this ?.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by plain and simple

The difference between our views is telling: You quote people as your sources for eternal wisdom and guidance.
People are fallible, limited, selfish and sinful in nature.

I speak for, and from who I am as a person.

I quote God, who is perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, all-powerful, sovereign and the Creator of all the sinful people you quote.

You quote the bible, which is not perfect, omniscient, omnipresent or all-powerful.
It was written by people (who are fallible) from their perceptions and understanding of things - no different.

I wouldn't dare trust my eternity to the words and wisdom of men, including myself.

You already have.

Originally Posted by Jerwade

It is evident that you operate from the premise of fear to support your conclusions.

You're a braver man than I.

The difference could be that: I was not given a Spirit of fear, but one of love, power and that of a sound mind.

[Robert M Prince]

Psalm 111:[10] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
I believe that our God does not desire the damnation of any of this creatures. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" - 2 Peter 3:9.
I believe that the God of the Bible, in His omniscience, knows every person on the face of this earth who is hungering and thirsting after righteousness (as was Cornelius the gentile in Acts chapter 10) and in His omnipotence make arrangements for that person to repent and be saved. Jesus said in Matt. 5:[6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled (with the Holy Ghost - which God give to all those who obey Him) - see Acts 5:32.
Jer. 29:[13] And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Every one who diligently seeks Him with their whole heart is promised they will find Him.
[13] And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

[plain and simple]

Originally Posted by pcamps

You claim that Jesus saves us from eternal hell,where have you posted scriptures to support this ?.

Actually, I did. Look again.

[plain and simple]

Originally Posted by Jrhockney

It shouldn't take much bravery to consider the possibility that your translation is flawed and that God is not psychotic by any known human standard of psychiatry or justice. Its one thing to believe "hard truths" in the bible...its another thing to believe 'truths' that are insane on an infinite scale...which is the reality of what the creation of an eternal torture hell for flawed and "born into sin" creations would represent. God made the rules (which again includes "one sin damning all humanity and its offspring who don't accept Jesus"...who most of them have never even heard of thanks to their culture or place of birth) and creation and set the penalties and then reveals himself only in creation (eventhough he made the science of it all viewable and confusing) and only literally reveals himself in extremely limited circumstances...

..if this is really all about "fire insurance," your should be warned...Islam has a much worse hell as described in the Koran in store for you if you don't convert!! (Dun dun Duuuuunnnnn!) One religions Saint is another religions eternal torture destined infidel

I've considered the possibility that my understanding could be wrong. I do it regularly, in fact. I'm just a person, flawed like everyone else. In my almost 30 years of studying the scriptures, I've learned to study prayerfully, contextually, historically, and with fasting, relying on the Holy Spirit.

Have you?

As for the Koran, I'm not concerned about what it says. There can only be one eternal truth. Only one. The scripture below answers your post by itself. But the part I underlined and put in bold is how I know that God and His Word are the truth and not Allah and the Koran. Am I willing to stake my life and my eternity on it? Absolutely. In a heartbeat. And I am. So are you with your beliefs.

John 14:1-11 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."

[plain and simple]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

I speak for, and from who I am as a person.

Then you are your own god because you have ordained yourself as all-knowing in regards to eternal matters. That's scary as hell itself when you, yourself, are so finite, limited, young in relation to the universe, and so very flawed. I know these things about myself already and I don't dare rely on my own understanding. I recognize my NEED for a Savior.

You quote the bible, which is not perfect, omniscient, omnipresent or all-powerful.
It was written by people (who are fallible) from their perceptions and understanding of things - no different.

This is a very crucial, life defining difference between us. I could explain the difference but you wouldn't understand it (says the scriptures). I could offer you 100% evidence that the Bible is God's Word and you wouldn't look into it. No one on these forums ever has.

You already have.

Once again, a life defining difference between us. I have sought Him and found Him. I am more sure that He exists than I am that you do. After all, I've not seen you either. Only your words.

The difference could be that: I was not given a Spirit of fear, but one of love, power and that of a sound mind.

It's utterly remarkable to me how you find it SO VERY CONVENIENT to quote scripture to reference what YOU have when you openly condemn the scriptures as faulty and written by men. Forgive me for the bluntness, but that's sheer arrogance. How do you know what you just quoted is true and not full of error? By your own words, you can't possibly know and therefore haven't a shred of evidence that you know ANY of the truth or are even saved for that matter. How can you when the Bible is an error-ridden book written by men? The ONLY possible answer would be that God showed Himself physically to you and told you everything you know.

Otherwise, you're in the same boat you accuse me and others of. Look down, friend. Your boat has a hole in it.

[Jrhockney]

Originally Posted by plain and simple

I've considered the possibility that my understanding could be wrong. I do it regularly, in fact. I'm just a person, flawed like everyone else. In my almost 30 years of studying the scriptures, I've learned to study prayerfully, contextually, historically, and with fasting, relying on the Holy Spirit.

Have you?

Of course I have, that's why I'm here in the first place. 30 years is alot of time to build certainty and you are probably more certain of it than I am, but I was certain of the same thing you are for probably a good 20 years or so until I came to a different conclusion after much thought and prayer. That being, that the idea of an eternal torture chamber as a "born in punishment" for what would unavoidably include 70% to 99% of all humanity all because of God's design is just too logically and morally insane to be considered a reality.

If God is the creator of the universe and decider of moral law, then it all goes back to him for putting 70% to 99% of all humanity in an impossible situation and then say: "its all your fault and you deserve eternal torture for it." This is too ridiculous for words and I think you know it too in some forgotten part of your conscience...which for all we know, might be God saying "I appreciate your level of faith in me but I'm not a monster or insane." Thats what I thought he was telling me at least, and I now consider other possibilities like Universal Reconcilation, Annihilation, or even some William Lane Craig or CS Lewis like idea of Eternal Seperation to be greater possibilities.

Regarding the Koran, what the bible says about it's self is not the point because the Koran makes similiar claims. My point of bringing it up was to show you how ridiculous it would be for your faith to be based on "fire insurance" ..which you implied when you called Jerwade a braver man than you for not believing or interpreting the bible the same way trusting Christ to influence his intuition rather than just the bible, but perhaps now you see my point

[plain and simple]

Originally Posted by Jrhockney

Of course I have, that's why I'm here in the first place. 30 years is alot of time to build certainty and you are probably more certain of it than I am, but I was certain of the same thing you are for probably a good 20 years or so until I came to a different conclusion after much thought and prayer. That being, that the idea of an eternal torture chamber as a "born in punishment" for what would unavoidably include 70% to 99% of all humanity all because of God's design is just too logically and morally insane to be considered a reality.

The following use of the word "YOU" is meant as a generality to anyone who would ask what you did. So, because YOU don't like something or want it to be true, it can't be? Because YOU find it morally and logically wrong, that means the God of the universe, the Creator, should follow suit? Do you understand Him? His sovereignty? His holiness? His justice? His wrath? His love for that matter? People love to say that God is love but they hardly ever know what that really even means.

I believe you came to a different conclusion after 20 years due more to your much thought, than prayer. I can say that because that belief is 100% against what the scripture teaches. It conforms only to what people WANT to be true and DECLARE to be true after the TWISTING of scriptures.

God is perfect, infallible and all-knowing. We aren't. If anyone doesn't agree with that, I don't hold out much hope for them. If someone DOES believe that, why on earth do they expect to fully understand God? Think about it. Would you even WANT a god you fully understood? Would he then even BE God?

If God is the creator of the universe and decider of moral law, then it all goes back to him for putting 70% to 99% of all humanity in an impossible situation and then say: "its all your fault and you deserve eternal torture for it." This is too ridiculous for words and I think you know it too in some forgotten part of your conscience...which for all we know, might be God saying "I appreciate your level of faith in me but I'm not a monster or insane." Thats what I thought he was telling me at least, and I now consider other possibilities like Universal Reconcilation, Annihilation, or even some William Lane Craig or CS Lewis like idea of Eternal Seperation to be greater possibilities.

So, God is solely responsible for the actions of every human? You blame Him for putting people here who do bad things? Be very careful, friend, because then YOU would not be here. YOU have hurt other people. So have I. EVERY sin is an affront to God and His nature. There is no sliding scale for sin. Stealing a piece of candy is the same in God's eyes as a mass murder.

So, if God should intervene when it comes to the wickedness of men, then to what level? Where's the stopping point? That line would quickly fade when He intervened with something YOU wanted to do.

People are responsible for their own choices, words, and actions. Thus, they must bear the consequences for those actions. But God provided a way out. Jesus. That's also each person's choice.

Regarding the Koran, what the bible says about it's self is not the point because the Koran makes similiar claims. My point of bringing it up was to show you how ridiculous it would be for your faith to be based on "fire insurance" ..which you implied when you called Jerwade a braver man than you for not believing or interpreting the bible the same way trust Christ to influence his intuition rather than just the bible, but perhaps now you see my point

I see your point. I really do. If someone doesn't know what's true, who is right or what to believe, then what you said would be logical. "The Bible says this but the Koran says that and Buddha said the other thing!" I don't have that quandry. Not anymore. I found the truth and am 100% convinced of it. I'd stake my life and eternity on it. In fact, I am... without a single hesitation, doubt or fear about it. I know the Bible is God's Word and that it's true. I know the Koran is not true because it goes against the Bible. When it comes to truth, I mean THE TRUTH, there can ONLY be ONE TRUTH. Anything that goes against it is, logically, a lie and must be rejected. Attempts to justify a lie are nothing more than a rebellion against the truth. Simple logic. When you learn the truth, do you conform that truth to fit YOUR life or do you conform your life to fit the truth? The answer to that will show you who your G/god really is.

As for "fire insurance," people get saved for many different reasons. Remember, people are imperfect, even in their salvation. There is a great desire for self-preservation. However, no matter what reason people come to Jesus and become saved, a TRUE Christian's life will then show the fruit of it. They will experience the love of Christ for themselves and fall in love with Him. They will conform their life to His word and bear the fruit of true Christianity.

Those who come to Him merely for the "fire insurance" and nothing more clearly have never met Him and should seriously question their salvation.

Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

[Jrhockney]

Wow, do you think you wrote enough? lol. Ok here goes nothing.

Originally Posted by plain and simple

The following use of the word "YOU" is meant as a generality to anyone who would ask what you did. So, because YOU don't like something or want it to be true, it can't be? Because YOU find it morally and logically wrong, that means the God of the universe, the Creator, should follow suit? Do you understand Him? His sovereignty? His holiness? His justice? His wrath? His love for that matter? People love to say that God is love but they hardly ever know what that really even means.

Well, if love includes eternal torture of the people who, because of their situation, birthplace or intellect, maybe we should adopt the justice system of Vlad the Impaler as the "loving thing to do" eventhough we wouldn't even come close to how extreme God's supposed model is..Oh wait, we have laws against cruel and unusual punishment in this country...Oh well, I guess we just don't know true love.. As I've said before many times on this forum, I understand that there are hard truths in the bible, but this "truth" isn't just hard, its insane to an infinite degree by any known human standard of justice. I mean seriously, torturous wrath that never ends?! Creating the significance of one sin to be eternal for both adam and all his offspring when their brains can't even comprehend eternity?! Sorry, but if there are reasonable alternatives (such bad understanding of Greek or Hebrew words or even the bible authors themselves) I think I'll go with one of those rather than feeling like I'm walking around in a straight jacket my entire life.

Originally Posted by plain and simple

I believe you came to a different conclusion after 20 years due more to your much thought, than prayer. I can say that because that belief is 100% against what the scripture teaches. It conforms only to what people WANT to be true and DECLARE to be true after the TWISTING of scriptures.

God is perfect, infallible and all-knowing. We aren't. If anyone doesn't agree with that, I don't hold out much hope for them. If someone DOES believe that, why on earth do they expect to fully understand God? Think about it. Would you even WANT a god you fully understood? Would he then even BE God?
[/quote]

You can believe whatever you want about how much I prayed vs think, but in the words of many guests on Jerry Springer, "Don' judge me! You don't know me!" Yes, God is perfect and all knowing and I don't know all his ways. Maybe he has some way morally justifying such virtual madness that we will only comprehend when we get to heaven, but the "Because God said so" argument has been used far too often to justify horrible things in history and even today, and is often times its based on a misunderstanding of their religion anyways; much as I hope this is.. A father strapping a bomb to his son probably said the same thing (Because God said so) when his son objected.

Originally Posted by plain and simple

So, God is solely responsible for the actions of every human? You blame Him for putting people here who do bad things? Be very careful, friend, because then YOU would not be here. YOU have hurt other people. So have I. EVERY sin is an affront to God and His nature. There is no sliding scale for sin. Stealing a piece of candy is the same in God's eyes as a mass murder.

So, if God should intervene when it comes to the wickedness of men, then to what level? Where's the stopping point? That line would quickly fade when He intervened with something YOU wanted to do.

People are responsible for their own choices, words, and actions. Thus, they must bear the consequences for those actions. But God provided a way out. Jesus. That's also each person's choice.

I'm not necessarily saying God solely responsible (I'm assuming your not a calvinist), but even for total freewill Arminian Believers and given the setup of creation, its hard not to logically say "mostly" responsible based on the evidence. When people put into a nearly impossible situation that is the direct result of someone, and only a few people survive the situation, for that "someone else" not to take most if not all of the responsibility for the ones who didn't survive because they weren't smart enough or lucky enough would be absurd. I understand the need for flawed people (including myself) because it would be pretty boring for everyone to be perfect and God wouldn't have as much of a reference point for himself and no reason to make his son a hero, but I do not see the need for an incomprehensibly insane punishment for the ones who don't find the extremely narrow road.

..but I know...it is the way it is right? Well I say wrong when you only think you know what "right" is, there are other possibilities, the "right" is insane well beyone any known standard, and the "right" has the potential to hurt humanity in general if it is in fact wrong. On this last point as an extreme but real example, think of the spanish inquisition and some priest shouting to a victim: "Repent! I'm only torturing you so you won't be tortured in hell! This is nothing compared to how it will be!" I'm willing to be most of those priests prayed alot more than you do and probably thought they had the TRUTH as much if not more than you do considering they were willing to torture someone for their faith....but I won't judge lol.

And just a note on where you said: "There is no sliding scale for sin. Stealing a piece of candy is the same in God's eyes as a mass murder." I've heard this many times and I believe it is misleading and to be a flawed understanding of scripture. There are numerous examples of sin being rated in scripture but I don't want to get off topic so I'll just leave you with this link that I just found and read briefly for thought sake: "All Sins are Equal in God's Sight" . . . And Other Stupid Statements | Parchment and Pen

Originally Posted by plain and simple

When you learn the truth, do you conform that truth to fit YOUR life or do you conform your life to fit the truth? The answer to that will show you who your G/god really is.

While I do think this is ultimately good advice, I also think too many Christians have become too confident in their own definitions of the truth based often on incomplete or potentially faulty evidence and throw up their banner of exclusivism long before it is warranted. For example, there are many arguments that have been made against your position on eternity on this forum already that have not been address any near to the point where you've been proven right beyond a reasonable doubt...given that you likely think their eternities are at stake, I'd say thats a good standard of proof to good by (it works for our courts in murder trials at least). You might fall back on the "I've been praying years and I think I'm right because the Holy Spirit told me so" but so did the early Church Fathers and other members of different denominations and somehow I'm thinking ya'll wouldn't agree on everything We can blame that on the fact that humanity is flawed as you have already mentioned, but what makes this so different? Not much really. Its mostly overconfidence and often confusing the voice of the Holy Spirit with the voice of ones upbringing or theology. God may very well see everything in black in white, but we are not God and and things often appear in gray to our minds, even when we are trying to interpret the bible.