The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment (LONG) (churches, beliefs, advent, pagans)
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Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
The word there for being born doesn't mean to be conceived. Isn't it interesting that Jesus simply says not be "born"? So it we be better had that man "Judas" not been born. If we are pro-life then we must conclude that this verse itself cannot be said to mean that Jesus meant for Judas to never coming into existance. But rather simply to not be born. To not be born is not the same as to not be conceived.
The order of the words in that sentence also allow (or rather suggest) the understanding that it would have been better for Jesus if Jude had not been born. Technically one might also understand it, that it were better for Jude if Jesus had not been born, but this would make the least sense.
But woe to that man [anthrôpô ekeinô] by whom the son of man is deliverd up. It was good to him, if was not born that man [anthrôpos ekeinos].
The word in question litterally means "to beget" btw.
The thing lacking from this thread so far is a single verse anywhere in the Bible that describes how ordinary people will one day be judged and sentenced to suffer consciously for eternity.
The thing lacking from this thread so far is a single verse anywhere in the Bible that describes how ordinary people will one day be judged and sentenced to suffer consciously for eternity.
If God knows all things beforehand and is the giver of life. Then that means that God would be reponsible for anyone that would be eternally tormented. For it would be indisputable that God enabled such wickedness to happen given that He knew beforehand that it would and then went ahead and gave the wicked person life.
If God knows all things beforehand and is the giver of life. Then that means that God would be reponsible for anyone that would be eternally tormented. For it would be indisputable that God enabled such wickedness to happen given that He knew beforehand that it would and then went ahead and gave the wicked person life.
The evil in the world has long been a stumbling block for a lot of people. And that's understandable. However, the answer lies in looking beyond the surface of the question, "Why does God allow evil?"
We have to remember that people are part of that equation. Humans are born into a fallen and depraved nature. They also have the free will to make choices. Choices have consequences. If people didn't have that free will, we would all be robots and forced to act and think in specific ways. God doesn't want a relationship with us that way; not out of obligation or force. If we had the ability to create a race of people who lived in an aquarium (for example) and placed the knowledge of us as their creator inside them, would it mean very much if they were programmed to love you and act certain ways? Of course not. It would mean so much more if they CHOSE to love you, wouldn't it?
So, what if God intervened in cases of evil to not allow them to happen? Sounds great on the surface, right? But then you have to answer the question: "To what degree of evil should God intervene in?" What if something YOU wanted to do was interfered with? If we want God to intervene with murder and rape, how about idolatry? Lies? Sin isn't registered on a sliding scale. All sin is offensive to God and comes between us and Him. All sin hurts others.
An unsaved person whose worst sin is that of gossip is just as unsaved as a nonbeliever who is a serial killer. If God were to intervene and prevent evil, He would have to remove us. Plus, if God were to prevent all the negative consequences of our actions, would we really have free will?
God allows evil, yes. But He also restrains it. It helps to remember that one day God will eradicate evil. But now He is patiently waiting so that more will turn to Him and be saved.
God allows evil, yes. But He also restrains it. It helps to remember that one day God will eradicate evil. But now He is patiently waiting so that more will turn to Him and be saved.
Many people die every week. As time goes on, for every one person who turns to him, more than one are dying without turning to him (the correct God in your view).
The evil in the world has long been a stumbling block for a lot of people. And that's understandable. However, the answer lies in looking beyond the surface of the question, "Why does God allow evil?"
We have to remember that people are part of that equation. Humans are born into a fallen and depraved nature. They also have the free will to make choices. Choices have consequences. If people didn't have that free will, we would all be robots and forced to act and think in specific ways. God doesn't want a relationship with us that way; not out of obligation or force. If we had the ability to create a race of people who lived in an aquarium (for example) and placed the knowledge of us as their creator inside them, would it mean very much if they were programmed to love you and act certain ways? Of course not. It would mean so much more if they CHOSE to love you, wouldn't it?
So, what if God intervened in cases of evil to not allow them to happen? Sounds great on the surface, right? But then you have to answer the question: "To what degree of evil should God intervene in?" What if something YOU wanted to do was interfered with? If we want God to intervene with murder and rape, how about idolatry? Lies? Sin isn't registered on a sliding scale. All sin is offensive to God and comes between us and Him. All sin hurts others.
An unsaved person whose worst sin is that of gossip is just as unsaved as a nonbeliever who is a serial killer. If God were to intervene and prevent evil, He would have to remove us. Plus, if God were to prevent all the negative consequences of our actions, would we really have free will?
God allows evil, yes. But He also restrains it. It helps to remember that one day God will eradicate evil. But now He is patiently waiting so that more will turn to Him and be saved.
The point here is that God is responsible for every wicked person that ever lived. Because He knew the end from the beginning and He is the one that gave that wicked person life in the first place.
Flee anything that sniffs of Fundamentalism Christianity. This OP reeks of it. It is poison. It will poison your soul. Billions of people have turned their backs on Christianity because of the heresy of eternal torment. Would God justify a punishment He knew would drive billions of people away from Him? Use your God-given brains, you people who are reading this but not responding (lurkers). Eternal torment is the greatest evil ever concocted by depraved church leaders to keep the masses in lock-step with their own depraved policies for running the Church.
Many people die every week. As time goes on, for every one person who turns to him, more than one are dying without turning to him (the correct God in your view).
Yes, that's the saddest part. Multitudes die every day without turning to God, rejecting Him. Free will means that people have the freedom to make that choice for themselves. God doesn't interfere with our choices. And, as with every aspect of life, choices come with consequences and we all own those as well.
The point here is that God is responsible for every wicked person that ever lived. Because He knew the end from the beginning and He is the one that gave that wicked person life in the first place.
That's a cop-out. It's blaming God for the actions of people when they have made their own choices. If God intervenes and prevents evil, then none of us would be here. To what degree should God then intervene? What about when it comes to something you want to do? All of us have sinned and hurt other people. Is God responsible for your actions and choices? If so, then by your own reasoning, He should have just eliminated you before you could do any of it.
As I said, there is no sliding scale for sin. There is no scale of 1 - 10. Sin is sin and all of it is offensive to God. But God loves us so much and desires that our relationship be restored with Him. But, in order for that to happen, justice has to be served first. He can't dwell where sin is. That's why He provided the one and only way for us to be reconciled with Him. He sent His Son to live as a man, sinless and perfect, but choosing to die in our place. That's love. That grace and that mercy are available to every person, no matter what they've done. As long as a person draws breath, they can receive that gift of pardon and be with Him, where they belong.
If they choose not to accept that gift, that's their choice because none of us are pre-programmed robots. God wants us to CHOOSE Him. But to reject Him is to also own the consequences. When someone rejects God's sacrifice of Jesus on the cross to pay for their sins, then they must pay that penalty because justice must be served. God is love, which is where the grace, mercy and forgiveness comes in. But He's also holy and just and cannot let sin just slide.
If a man who hurt your family stood before a judge in court and the judge said, "Well, I'm a loving judge and I choose to forgive you and erase all the consequences," you would stand up and DEMAND justice! You would call the judge unfair and insane!
God is not responsible for the choices and actions of any person. We all have the free will and knowledge of good and evil inside us. Our choices bring consequences, good or bad, and there is no escaping or arguing away that reality.
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