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A couple of other articles I found of interest for those wishing to dive deeper into the objective vs. subjective aspects of our Justification in Christ:
For reference purposes, here is the Westminster Confession of Faith concerning Justification. Not surprisingly, Presbyterianism (Calvin) does differ somewhat from Lutheranism (Luther) on Justification. Although the WCF does not use the terms objective vs. subjective when speaking of the objective (judicial or forensic) act of justification vs. the subjective act of imputing Christ's righteousness to the believer through faith, the idea is clearly expressed in article iv, item (2) objectively; and item (3) subjectively:
Chapter XI - Of Justification.
i. Those whom God effectually calleth He also freely justifieth;(1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous: not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone: nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience, to them as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,(2) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness, by faith: which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.(3)
(1) Ro 8:30; Ro 3:24.
(2) Ro 4:5-8; 2Co 5:19,21; Ro 3:22,24,25,27,28; Tit 3:5,7; Eph 1:7; Jer 23:6; 1Co 1:30,31; Ro 5:17,18,19.
(3) Ac 10:44; Gal 2:16; Php 3:9; Ac 13:38,39; Eph 2:7,8.
ii. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(1) yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(2)
(1) Jn 1:12; Ro 3:28; Ro 5:1.
(2) Jas 2:17,22,26; Gal 5:6.
iii. Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to His Father's justice in their behalf.(1) Yet, inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them,(2) and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead,(3) and both, freely, not for anything in them, their justification is only of free grace;(4) that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.(5)
(1) Ro 5:8,9,10,19; 1Ti 2:5,6; Heb 10:10,14; Da 9:24,26; Isa 53:4,5,6,10,11,12.
(2) Ro 8:32.
(3) 2Co 5:21; Mt 3:17; Eph 5:2.
(4) Ro 3:24; Eph 1:7.
(5) Ro 3:26; Eph 2:7.
iv. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect;(1) and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification (2) nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.(3)
(1) Gal 3:8; 1Pe 1:2,19,20; Ro 8:30.
(2) Gal 4:4; Ro 4:25.
(3) Col 1:21,22; Gal 2:16; Tit 3:4-7.
Exactly, that's why faith (our own faith) is not the deciding factor. Because we could boast if it was, or if was not considered a gift to us.
Faith is the deciding factor in salvation. If you do not place your trust in Christ then you are not saved. The Scriptures say it over and over. Believe, believe, believe. Acts 16:31 is one such verse of many.
Eph. 2:8,9 says that salvation is a gift given to you through faith in Christ. It is not the faith that is a gift, it is the salvation.
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You are changing, you just don't recognize it, or perhaps pride may not allow you to admit it...LOL Go back and read some of your posts three months ago. I see a remarkable improvement in your understanding of the Gospel. I praise God each day for it.
I understand your doctrinal position...LOL That's why I keep pounding on it like a drum. If you want the discussion to end, than so be it. But I'll continue to pray for you each day. You post a lot here and consequently are able to reach many people in doing so. I want them to hear the Gospel in it's full truth, and what Jesus accomplished for us.
My understanding of the Gospel has always been just fine. I have started explaining it more fully so that there is no misunderstanding as to what I am saying.
Everyone changes. There is no standing still in the Christian life. Qui non proficit de deficit. He who does not advance loses ground.
My doctrinal position is not in need of your prayer.
Now understand this. No one is justified until they believe in Christ for salvation. Justification is potential only, as a result of what Christ did on the cross until a person makes a decision to believe in Christ. God does not impute His righteousness to that individual and therefore does not declare him justified until he trusts in Christ.
As I recall, you admitted some time ago that you are a universalist, did you not?
No one is justified until they believe in Christ for salvation. Justification is potential only, as a result of what Christ did on the cross until a person makes a decision to believe in Christ. God does not impute His righteousness to that individual and therefore does not declare him justified until he trusts in Christ.
Justification for all is accomplished at Calvary and the accomplishment of justification can only be experienced when believed.
So it's not potential it's done but still to be experienced by many.
Here is another link to explains that it is one simple initial moment of faith in Christ that results in eternal salvation. Continuous faith is not a requirement to maintain salvation as that would be giving you the credit. God simply requires that we recognize that Christ provided salvation for all who will recognize what He did on the cross on our behalf, and to receive the offer of that salvation through an expression of trust. At that point God gives you His eternal life and His perfect righteousness. And God keeps you saved eternally even if for some reason you should lose your faith. Which by the way, no one should lose their faith, but it does happen to some people. Nevertheless, they remain in the royal family of God. That is because of the character, the grace of God.
Justification for all is accomplished at Calvary and the accomplishment of justification can only be experienced when believed.
So it's not potential it's done but still to be experienced by many.
Which means that it's potential. Justification is not applied to any member of the human race unless/until they believe in Christ. Nothing that Christ did on the Cross is available to anyone until they put their trust in Him. That is why Jesus said in John 8:24 'I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.'
Justification is the result of having been imputed with God's perfect righteousness at the moment of faith in Christ BASED ON WHAT CHRIST DID ON THE CROSS. For any member of the human race justification remains a potential until it becomes a reality at the moment of faith in Christ.
Following is the doctrine of justification compiled by Robert B. Thieme, Jr.
quote
Doctrine of Justification.
1) Definition: Justification means ''vindication''; therefore, it is the judicial act of God whereby He imputes His righteousness to the new believer at the point of salvation, thereby vindicating or justifying him.
2) The meaning is derived from three Greek words:
a. DIKAIOO: ''to justify, to vindicate.''
b. DIKAIOSOS: ''justification, vindication.''
c. DIKAIOMA: an act of acquittal or justification.
3) ''Phase One'' justification or vindication occurs at the moment of faith in Christ (Rom. 3:28; Gal. 3:24).
4) Phase One justification is based on the doctrinal principle of grace (Rom. 3:24; Tit. 3:7).
5) Therefore, Phase One justification does not occur through the Mosaic Law (Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16).
6) The mechanics of Phase One justification is the imputation of divine righteousness to the one believing in Christ (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 3:22; 4:4,5, 11b; 9:30-32).
7) The work of justification was accomplished by Christ on the Cross (Rom. 5:8,9).
8) Because the work for our justification was accomplished on the Cross, Christ was resurrected to relate justification to the strategic victory (Rom. 4:25).
9) Phase Two (Christian life) justification or vindication is the function and production of the super-grace life (Jas. 2:21-25).
10) The means of Phase Two justification or vindication is the faily function fo the grace apparatus for perception: wisdom is the utilization of doctrine residing in the right lobe (Matt. 11:19; Luke 7:35).
unquote
( From 'The Barrier' by R. B. Thieme Jr. p.37,38. former pastor of Berachah Church, Houston TX.)
The term 'Super grace life' was a term coined by R. B. Thieme to explain the Christlike character of the spiritually mature believer.
I would....but have enough to do just verifying the stances that I quote.
I may later look into "Free Grace Soteriology". The youth of our church have asked me what other faiths believe. This may be an opportunity for a future lesson with them.
Thanks for the suggestion
All good. I am sorry I didn't have the time to put up the scriptures, and I probably won't either today thanks for your patience!
Sorry Mike if i pay your debt and you are not in knowledge of it does not change the fact that your debt is paid . God calls the things that are not as though they were . This is why Jesus said it's finished . You were not forgiven the day you believed you were forgiven 2000 years ago at Calvary infact the scriptures tell us he was slain before the foundation of the world . So the moment we believe we experience what God as already done.
Sorry Mike if i pay your debt and you are not in knowledge of it does not change the fact that your debt is paid . God calls the things that are not as though they were . This is why Jesus said it's finished . You were not forgiven the day you believed you were forgiven 2000 years ago at Calvary infact the scriptures tell us he was slain before the foundation of the world . So the moment we believe we experience what God as already done.
Your sins were judged at the Cross. They are not forgiven until you believe in Christ. The work of Christ on the Cross makes the forgiveness of sins possible at the point of salvation. Again, Jesus said that unless you believe in Him you will die in your sins. John 8:24.
Acts 26:18 ''...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritence among those who have been sanctified (set apart unto God) by faith in Me.
Romans 3:26 'for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
And the sins that a believer commits after salvation aren't forgiven until he names them to God. 1 John 1:9 'If (third class condition in the Greek. Maybe you will and maybe you won't), we acknowledge our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now, common sense will tell you that if the believers sins aren't forgiven until he names them to God then they weren't forgiven at the Cross. They were judged at the Cross.
God can forgive the sin of the believer when he names it to God because it was already judged at the Cross. In the same manner, God forgives the sins of the unbeliever when he believes in Christ because those sins were already judged at the Cross.
Redemption, atonement,and propitiation took place at the Cross. Justification was made possible by the Cross. The act of being declared justified by God takes place when God imputes His righteousness to the one who has believed in Christ. Not before.
And for that reason
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Those who are going to understand this will, and those who aren't going to understand this, won't.
Faith is the deciding factor in salvation. If you do not place your trust in Christ then you are not saved. The Scriptures say it over and over. Believe, believe, believe. Acts 16:31 is one such verse of many.
The faith that you speak of is not Gospel faith given by the Spirit, but rather faith of the flesh. There is a great difference between the two. Gospel faith from the Spirit looks to Christ alone as being the only deciding factor in the sinner's justification before God. The faith of the flesh is an effort before God to justify itself. But the scriptures do not recognize faith as being a good faith effort of man (otherwise boasting is possible). But rather the scriptures teach of a heavenly faith, a faith from the Spirit, a gift from God that receives the promises of God.
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Eph. 2:8,9 says that salvation is a gift given to you through faith in Christ. It is not the faith that is a gift, it is the salvation.
A major doctrinal difference here. Faith, as well as salvation, are both gifts from God. So also is repentance that proceeds it.
Heb 12:2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross,
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift, Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;
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My understanding of the Gospel has always been just fine. I have started explaining it more fully so that there is no misunderstanding as to what I am saying.
We're all growing, and praise God for it. But I have to admit, you're explaining the Gospel much better .
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Everyone changes. There is no standing still in the Christian life. Qui non proficit de deficit. He who does not advance loses ground.
Agreed, and hopefully for the better. We should never be to proud to learn more, even if we have to fine tune our doctrines from time to time. I do it also. We're all sinners, and none of us see truth perfectly.
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My doctrinal position is not in need of your prayer.
Sure it is. So is your pride...LOL
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Now understand this. No one is justified until they believe in Christ for salvation.
Subjectively speaking, agreed. And I've never argued against this. But objectively speaking, the legal and forensic basis for our justification before God, you're wrong. The basis of our Justification before God is Christ alone. I won't list all the reasons for why it is so, but I'll post an excellent article (from a reformed perspective) that describes it fully here:
Justification is potential only, as a result of what Christ did on the cross until a person makes a decision to believe in Christ. God does not impute His righteousness to that individual and therefore does not declare him justified until he trusts in Christ.
Again, a major difference between what Christ accomplished for us and the sinner receiving it.
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As I recall, you admitted some time ago that you are a universalist, did you not?
Yes I did, and still do admit it. What I do not claim to know is how this mystery will ultimately come about and be revealed, except for it being by the power and grace of God, who does will it so.
Joh 3:7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
But I also know that we're not to walk by sight or sound, but rather by faith:
2Co 5:7 for through faith we walk, not through sight--
The scriptures are plentiful for it's support, which we should not deny out of pride, or because of other doctrines that appear on the surface (by sight) to disagree with it:
It's basis, or foundation, is established in the eternal decrees of God. This much, I'm fully persuaded and convinced of:
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
It's accomplishment is in Christ who calls and also dies for the sinner, the impious ones. These are the called:
Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
Luk 5:32 I came not to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
Luk 24:47 and reformation and remission of sins to be proclaimed in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem:
Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
Rom 3:24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
The objective truth of the sinner's Justification proclaimed in the Gospel, is spoken here:
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
The subjective truth of the sinner's Justification, to know by faith, embrace and receive it, is spoken here:
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
It's a wonderful truth that I'm only starting to understand and appreciate. The scriptures teach it, though perhaps not as clearly as other doctrines, but I do believe it. And it will, I also believe, in time be revealed to all, to the glory of God:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-24-2010 at 09:58 AM..
Reason: typo
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thanks for your patience!
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