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We all have the carnal nature, and that is the target of God's wrath. If you take all of scripture together, you see that there is a death sentence on the old man (carnality), and believers are told to put it to death through denial - but God has already stated plainly that He will have all men to be saved - and nobody turns Him from His desired end.
It's a matter of the soul and spirit of a man, and the separation of the two. The soul is the carnal realm (which died in the Fall), and the spirit is the root of the man.
Letter of Universal Reconciliation | Charles T Russell (http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/Charles_Russell/index.html - broken link)
I rather wonder how traditionalists can perishing, death and desctruction make mean "everlasting life in misery", this is surely not what perishing, death and desctruction actually means
DEATH
Jesus destroys death -> death is defeated. When death is destroyed, what can be left but life? See 1 Cor 15:22-28. When death is destroyed, no one will ever die again and no one will remain dead. Thus all are alive due to Christ. BTW IMHO This easily defeats annihilationism -> Jesus defeats death so none can be left eternally dead.
DESTRUCTION Jesus came to save the lost (Luke 19:10). The greek word for lost is apollymi, which also also has meanings of "ruin", "perish" and "destroy". In effect Jesus came to save the lost, ruined, perished, & destroyed. When one examines the verses about destruction, they are largely about the wicked being destroyed.
The higher parable here is that the wicked are destroyed by having the wickedness within them destroyed (take Saul's conversion to Paul for example). There is alot you can study in this area. First you must realize we are all wicked. God actually saves by destroying us (burning out the wickedness), so that what is left willingly comes to Christ.
Were you brought to a place of destruction before you realized you needed Christ? Was the destruction necessary in order for you willingly come to Christ? Hopefully you realize the answer is YES to these questions.
PERISHING
Isaiah 57:1 even tells us that "the righteous perish", so perish does not mean "eternal torment". Perishing usually has meanings of the above two: either death or destruction.
There is much more to it than this, but you get the idea I hope. Of course some will disagree with this, but this is what this biblical universalist believes.
We all have the carnal nature, and that is the target of God's wrath. If you take all of scripture together, you see that there is a death sentence on the old man (carnality), and believers are told to put it to death through denial - but God has already stated plainly that He will have all men to be saved - and nobody turns Him from His desired end.
It's a matter of the soul and spirit of a man, and the separation of the two. The soul is the carnal realm (which died in the Fall), and the spirit is the root of the man.
A soul is just a body with a spirit in it. Your on the right track here but just confused it seems in the understanding of the spirit and soul. So a soul is essentially a body of BEING or a living being. A spirit is the being part though or the part that when united with the body gives it LIFE. Your right, there is a death sentence on the old man but that "old man" is still a reference to "spirit" just not the same type of spirit as the "new man".
As well as the verses who say sinners will not see life?
Sorry, forgot to address this part. Not all UR believers see it this way, but this is how I see it.
IMHO There is much confusion over this term "eternal life". Tradition has taught us that this means "living forever" or "immortality". But scripture teaches us otherwise. I will refer to "eternal life" as eonian life to avoid confusion here.
YES, scripture promises us immortality and eonian life, but they are not the same thing. Immortality is what we commonly think of "eternal life" - ie. living forever. But "eternal" eonian life has nothing to do with duration. It has to do with quality. Scripture defines eonian life here. This is the important bit:
John 17:3 Now this is eternal [eonian] life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
See, eonian life is simply knowing God. That is what the phrase "life" quite often means in scripture - knowing God. Those who don't know God are "dead" - not physically dead, but spiritually dead (ie. let the "dead" bury the dead). So scriptures like John 3:36 and even John 3:16 are not talking about God giving us immortality, they are simply talking about knowing God (eonian life).
If we believe in God, we will know Him, if we don't we are dead already (spiritually) and will perish. God's wrath will abide on us. But this brings the necessary destruction to destroy the wickedness in us, which will eventually lead us to seeing God and then knowing God. Then we will have eonian life.
What are some specifics of the eonian life? IMHO: understanding God, understanding His love is for all people, and understanding that we also should truly love all people, including our enemies.
Basically if we truly follow His two commandments, we will know God and have eonian life. (The two commandments being of course Love God and Love others as ourselves).
1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal [eonian] life in him.
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Read the above verses carefully (actually read all of 1 John if you can). They are all talking about life, eonian life, which is all about knowing God, and knowing love. If you do not love, you do not have eonian life.
Remember this the next time you are reading about "eternal life". Its really talking about "knowing God", not some endless duration of time.
I don't understand, legoman. Don't the scriptures plainly say only those who believe will see Life?
I just posted another post on "eonian life". Let me know if that helps or not.
But to address this question, yes, only those who believe will see life.
Let me ask you this. Was there a point in your life when you did not believe? THEN YOU WERE DEAD. ALREADY CONDEMNED as John 3:18 says. Are those scary thoughts? Yet you believe now, and now you are beginning to see life.
The key you have to understand is that all will believe when they are confronted with God's presence in their face. For most people, this will happen after death and resurrection. To be sure, scripture tells us:
- every knee will bow (Psalm 22:29)
- every tongue will confess (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:9-11)
- even every person will swear allegiance (Isa 45:23 NASB)
- all will praise Him joyously and willingly (Rev 5:13)
- all will sing His praises (Rev 5:13)
(there are many more scriptures that confirm this)
Now some people don`t believe everyone will do these things, as if man's free will could reject God forever. Then your quarrel is with God and scripture, not me.
Other people say YES everyone will bow, but its too late after death. WHAT? WHY? There is no such scripture that says its too late after death. God desires all to be saved, He doesn't suddenly change His mind after you die.
A soul is just a body with a spirit in it. Your on the right track here but just confused it seems in the understanding of the spirit and soul. So a soul is essentially a body of BEING or a living being. A spirit is the being part though or the part that when united with the body gives it LIFE. Your right, there is a death sentence on the old man but that "old man" is still a reference to "spirit" just not the same type of spirit as the "new man".
The soul was condemned at the Fall (the soul that sinneth shall die), and the mind was a victim as well (it is enmity with God). So I see that the soul comprises the will, mind, and emotions of a man.
When that part of Adam rebelled, it took from His spirit the rightful place of dominion - since then, we live in a world of me first and selfish motivation. The soul is hell-bent. The spirit, which had communion with God, is forced into a role of servitude.
At redemption, the spirit is "awakened" to its rightful place of dominion, and the soul is (ultimately) put back to its place (this is the purpose of the cross). However, the imprint of the Fall has resulted in our nature being permanently carnal.
It must die - Jesus made it very clear what must be done to the flesh. The cross is the believer's sentence, and fire for everything else that is left.
little elmer, I agree with you what you are saying about the cross. We must take up our cross and follow Christ.
Trimac20, this link is a good intro and informative on some of the beliefs of UR, with respect to "life", "death", "perishing", etc. Check out some of the other articles on the side too.
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