The father calls Jesus "God" ... (Eden, incarnation, Jehovah)

[Ironmaw1776]

Heb. 1:5-8
For to which of the messengers said He(God the father) ever, 'My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son? 'and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, 'Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;


How do those of you who do not believe that Christ is God understand this?

[shibata]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Heb. 1:5-8
For to which of the messengers said He(God the father) ever, 'My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, 'Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;


How do those of you who do not believe that Christ is God understand this?

It would surely be clearer to everyone in current English.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by shibata

It would surely be clearer to everyone in current English.

Contemporary translations are good for those not reading too deeply, or for comparative considerations. However for the most part i prefer literal translations ...

Have you any thoughts concerning the OP though which you would care to mention?

[DiJay]

I do not believe that Jesus is God; and this is how I understand Hebrews 1: 5-8 ....

(Hebrews 1:5-8) For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”? 6*But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” 7*Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.” 8*But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.'"

Jehovah God demonstrated supreme confidence in his Son in charging him with the mission of going to earth and serving as the promised Messiah. The Bible record, however, does not state at what point Jehovah designated or informed the specific individual chosen to fill this role, whether at the time of the rebellion in Eden or at some later time. The requirements, particularly that of the ransom sacrifice, ruled out the use of any imperfect human, but not of a perfect spirit son. Out of all his millions of spirit sons, Jehovah selected one to take on the assignment: his Firstborn, the Word.—Compare Heb 1:5,*6.

By his entire life course of integrity to God, including his sacrifice, Jesus Christ accomplished the “one act of justification” that proved him qualified to serve as God’s anointed King-Priest in heaven. (Romans 5:17,*18) By his resurrection from the dead to life as a heavenly Son of God, he was “declared righteous in spirit.” (1Ti 3:16) Heavenly creatures proclaimed him “worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing,” as one who was both lionlike in behalf of justice and judgment and also lamblike in giving himself as a sacrifice for the saving of others. (Rev 5:5-13) He had accomplished his primary purpose of sanctifying his Father’s name. (Mt 6:9; 22:36-38) This he did, not just by using that name, but by revealing the Person it represents, displaying his Father’s splendid qualities—his love, wisdom, justice, and power—enabling persons to know or experience what God’s name stands for. (Mt 11:27; John 1:14,*18; 17:6-12)

And above all, he did it by upholding Jehovah’s universal sovereignty, showing that his own Kingdom government would be based solidly on that Supreme Source of authority. Therefore it could be said of him: “God is your throne forever.”—Heb 1:8.

That is how I understand those verses.

[shibata]

'The Son was made greater than the angels, just as the name that God gave him is greater than theirs, because God never said to any of his angels,

"You are my Son; today I have become your Father."

Nor did God say about any angel,

"I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."

But when God was about to send his first-born Son into the world, he said,

"All of God's angels must worship him." But about the angels God said,

"God makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."

About the Son, however, God said:

"Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice. You love what is right and hate what is wrong. That is why God, your God, has chosen you and has given you the joy of an honor far greater than he gave to your companions."' Heb 1:4-10

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by shibata

'The Son was made greater than the angels, just as the name that God gave him is greater than theirs, because God never said to any of his angels,

"You are my Son; today I have become your Father."

Nor did God say about any angel,

"I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."

But when God was about to send his first-born Son into the world, he said,

"All of God's angels must worship him." But about the angels God said,

"God makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."

About the Son, however, God said:

"Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice. You love what is right and hate what is wrong. That is why God, your God, has chosen you and has given you the joy of an honor far greater than he gave to your companions."' Heb 1:4-10

Indeed, i see the crux of your problem with the translation is quoted ... You only accept translations that translate "aion" with "forever" in certain verses. It makes sense, as i have read your posts on other threads and i know how you hold dear the doctrine of Eternal Torment. Whatever floats your boat sir(mam?), but that is not what the OP is about ...


God bless ...

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by shibata

There are modern literal translations! And better than the YLT technically. The YLT has some grave errors.

What I wrote applies all the same.


At best, it means that you keep bad company.

Use translations that are easily understood, that agree with the original (in your view). That's not hard to do.

And because I quoted from YLT you are going to accuse me of keeping bad company? ... at best? I'd hate to hear what you think about me at worst because of my quoting YLT ...

You seem to be a very sanctimonious person. I find that sad ... Humility, patience and kindness are far more becoming of a person who purports to be of the spirit of Christ. Qualities that you seem to be lacking as far as your words in this thread exemplify so far...

I dont presume to know you or the company you keep, however i hope the best for you and that you will be blessed by our father in heaven. I just wish you would deal with the OP instead of airing your pretensions concerning who you think that i am or concerning what you think about the company you believe that i keep ...

God bless ...

[shibata]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

And because I quoted from YLT you are going to accuse me of keeping bad company?

Accuse? Warn.

Charity, charity.

[Flaminghedge]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Heb. 1:5-8
For to which of the messengers said He(God the father) ever, 'My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son? 'and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, 'Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;


How do those of you who do not believe that Christ is God understand this?

Don't forget the next part that says GOD HAS A GOD. Wait what? God has a God? That can't be right:

8 But to the Son He says:


“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

We know that God cannot have a God, therefore we must examine the original language to see if it allows for another grammatically correct translation.

An extremely literal meaning would read:
"the throne of you the god to the age of the age"

This can be read as either:
1. The Son is God and it is therefore his throne
or
2. Another is God and it is his throne, but the throne is presented to the Son

The latter, I think holds more weight as God does not have a God, it is grammatically correct, and it is the topic of Hebrews chapter 1:

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the ages

God appointed his Son to be heir of all things makes no sense if the Son is God. It would then be: God appointed God to be heir of all things...

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Flaminghedge

Don't forget the next part that says GOD HAS A GOD. Wait what? God has a God? That can't be right:

8 But to the Son He says:


“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

We know that God cannot have a God, therefore we must examine the original language to see if it allows for another grammatically correct translation.

An extremely literal meaning would read:
"the throne of you the god to the age of the age"

This can be read as either:
1. The Son is God and it is therefore his throne
or
2. Another is God and it is his throne, but the throne is presented to the Son

The latter, I think holds more weight as God does not have a God, it is grammatically correct, and it is the topic of Hebrews chapter 1:

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the ages

God appointed his Son to be heir of all things makes no sense if the Son is God. It would then be: God appointed God to be heir of all things...

Thank you for answering the OP ... So are you saying God is talking to himself when he says "oh god", and not to Christ?

I personally dont have any problem with Christ being God, and referring to his father as God at the same time. I believe that this is due to the nature of divine incarnation, Christ put off his Glory and was created a little lower than the angels in order to become a son of man and provide the perfect sacrifice and atonement for sin. I believe it is perfectly within reason that God could become a man and remain God both through his incarnation as Christ and his retention of his deity at the same time. It seems difficult to understand being 3 dimensional mortals, but God is beyond the temporal and dimensional limitations of mere Humans, as well was and is Christ who transcended even before he was put to death.

So God the father refers to his son who is the incarnation of himself as God, and Christ refers to the father with whom he is actually one as God.

And thus, as it is written, even Christ is "the everlasting(ad) father" and "the mighty God".

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Again thanks for actually referring to the OP, this is the discussion i was hoping for.


God bless ...