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I am not blaming God at all. I am rightly acknowledging God as the first cause of all things. That is what Romans 8:20 and Romans 11:32 confirm. To "blame" suggests that God made a mistake. God did not make a mistake. God intended for this all to happen. So we would learn.
If you suggest God had to react to Adam, then it is you who are suggesting God made the mistake. You say "if Adam had not sinned" ... was it even possible that Adam would not have sinned? NO. God intended it all. It was always Adam's destiny to sin. How else would we experience evil so we could learn love? How else would we witness God's marvelous love in the sacrifice of Jesus?
No you are placing the sins at Gods feet. You do not know that you are, but you are. God is not the first of sin. He is the originator of the Law and Order, but as He is the Law and Order He can not also be the originator of sin. This is why you blame God and commit grave error and in fact sin in your statements.
God did not react to Adam at all as God can see everything. God gave Adam a choice to not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam chose to eat and God gave him that which he chose, disorder.
We do not deal with destiny. The devil uses this word to teach man that each has a fate and can not come out of it which is to sin and die. Adam experienced love in his very creation. You experience love in the very fact you can breathe and place sin at God's feet. This is what it means to proclaim Christ and to witness Him to men as the scripture proclaims. This is what your Universalism can not get around and this is why you still place sin at God's feet.
The answer I am seeing is that God's will cannot affect man's "free" will. I used to believe this too, but I can no longer accept it.
God's will is not inferior to man's will. God is the supreme being, not us.
Scripture speaks also of those who once claimed and then left as they never truly were of us. I would encourage you in Christ to return to that which you claim and now say you can not accept.
1 John 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn awat from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us; they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.
God could in fact affect free will if He so desired, but it is quite clear He did not, as if He had He would not come down in Christ Jesus and died on the cross for your sins. The choice is yours you have the free will to make the choice. You can choose to place sin at your feet where it rightly belongs or at God's feet which is a sin many choose to do. You can claim His order over your disorder. Either way God will give you what you give yourself over to. It is either Him or sin. The choice is yours.
No you are placing the sins at Gods feet. You do not know that you are, but you are. God is not the first of sin. He is the originator of the Law and Order, but as He is the Law and Order He can not also be the originator of sin. This is why you blame God and commit grave error and in fact sin in your statements.
God did not react to Adam at all as God can see everything. God gave Adam a choice to not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam chose to eat and God gave him that which he chose, disorder.
We do not deal with destiny. The devil uses this word to teach man that each has a fate and can not come out of it which is to sin and die. Adam experienced love in his very creation. You experience love in the very fact you can breathe and place sin at God's feet. This is what it means to proclaim Christ and to witness Him to men as the scripture proclaims. This is what your Universalism can not get around and this is why you still place sin at God's feet.
So God didn't harden Pharoah's heart or He doesn't orchestrate all things after His own will ?
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
So God didn't harden Pharoah's heart or He doesn't orchestrate all things after His own will ?
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
If you truly pay attention to scripture you would understand that Pharoah first hardened his heart to which God then gave him over to his choice and no longer pleaded with him to come out of it. This is a typical response to not accepting sin and giving it to that which is not responsible for it, which is God. Again reread the scripture and also I would encourage a study of Etz Hayim as well. You can get a copy at most major Christian book stores. It is quite clear who made the choice first. It was Pharoah.
Im sorry I have to run now to church. Rethink your thoughts and you will freely choose to come out of them to Christ.
Do you really believe it was conceivable that Pharoah had any choice in the matter ? Do you really believe that the Lord did not have it all planned out to reveal Himself to the children of Israel through Pharoah's heart being hardened .
I have read enough of the scriptures over 30 years to see plain as daylight that God hardened the heart of Pharoah
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
It's kind of remarkable as i am writing this post while watching a movie(true story) called saints and soldiers , a bunch of Germans have just slaughtered innocent American troops in an ambush , one American then gets the weapon from a German soldier who has just killed a bunch of his buddies in cold blood then lets the German run free.
I think you need to re-think your thoughts to align with God's plan for man , rather than the spirit of religions plan for man.
Orthodox and fundamental christianity in it's beginning was of God , it's now of the wrong spirit .In other words orthodox fundamental christianity is not the same as the early church , it's a man made system .
"The wrong spirit". That's the 16,000 lb. Gorilla sitting not so quietly in the middle of the room but still hoping not to be noticed.
Scripture speaks also of those who once claimed and then left as they never truly were of us. I would encourage you in Christ to return to that which you claim and now say you can not accept.
1 John 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn awat from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us; they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.
God could in fact affect free will if He so desired, but it is quite clear He did not, as if He had He would not come down in Christ Jesus and died on the cross for your sins. The choice is yours you have the free will to make the choice. You can choose to place sin at your feet where it rightly belongs or at God's feet which is a sin many choose to do. You can claim His order over your disorder. Either way God will give you what you give yourself over to. It is either Him or sin. The choice is yours.
Ashchultz, I am not saying God sinned. Man is the one who sins.
But God is still the first cause of all things, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. God is the one who created the universe. God is the one who created man with the will and capability of sinning. God is the one who knew it would all happen this way, and still chose to create.
A man sins because He is a sinner, not because he has free will. If we truly had free will, why has no one ever used this alleged free will to NOT SIN? No one has the free will to not sin for a whole day, let alone a lifetime! The only way one can come out of sin is through Christ working in that individual.
You are stuck on the free will belief, which IMHO is not scriptural. Yes, we make choices, but making a choice is not the same thing as "free will". All of our choices have a prior cause. I have discussed this in the past here. We can discuss it more.
It is quite obvious all through scripture that it is God who is in control and that man's will is weak and bends in the wind, due to desires and circumstances. There are plenty of examples. Pharoah. Joseph and his 12 brothers. Jonah going to Nineveh. Saul/Paul's conversion. Peter denying Christ.
God is the potter, we are the clay. God directs our steps. God works all things according to his plan. etc.
Our will is anything but free. Our will is weak, that is what it is. It is very very very heavily influenced, caused to do what it does, molded, bent, and even forced in some cases. The only way a man will come to God is when God enables and grants him to believe.
But what is a bit disheartening is you seem to think someone is not saved if they don't believe in free will?!? Who are you to say someone is "returning to vomit" because they see there is no free will?!?
Ashchultz, I am not saying God sinned. Man is the one who sins.
But God is still the first cause of all things, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. God is the one who created the universe. God is the one who created man with the will and capability of sinning. God is the one who knew it would all happen this way, and still chose to create.
A man sins because He is a sinner, not because he has free will. If we truly had free will, why has no one ever used this alleged free will to NOT SIN? No one has the free will to not sin for a whole day, let alone a lifetime! The only way one can come out of sin is through Christ working in that individual.
You are stuck on the free will belief, which IMHO is not scriptural. Yes, we make choices, but making a choice is not the same thing as "free will". All of our choices have a prior cause. I have discussed this in the past here. We can discuss it more.
It is quite obvious all through scripture that it is God who is in control and that man's will is weak and bends in the wind, due to desires and circumstances. There are plenty of examples. Pharoah. Joseph and his 12 brothers. Jonah going to Nineveh. Saul/Paul's conversion. Peter denying Christ.
God is the potter, we are the clay. God directs our steps. God works all things according to his plan. etc.
Our will is anything but free. Our will is weak, that is what it is. It is very very very heavily influenced, caused to do what it does, molded, bent, and even forced in some cases. The only way a man will come to God is when God enables and grants him to believe.
But what is a bit disheartening is you seem to think someone is not saved if they don't believe in free will?!? Who are you to say someone is "returning to vomit" because they see there is no free will?!?
I think you two are using different definitions of "free will."
Perhaps it would help us as readers (and maybe the debate in general) if you could both concisely define what you deem "free will."
Also, from a purely philosophical historicity point of view (after all it has been debated over two thousand years that we know of) there is a good resource that is very informative. It discusses today's scientific findings and historical philosophy: Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
An excerpt: "3.3 Do We Have Free Will?
A recent trend is to suppose that agent causation accounts capture, as well as possible, our prereflective idea of responsible, free action. But the failure of philosophers to work the account out in a fully satisfactory and intelligible form reveals that the very idea of free will (and so of responsibility) is incoherent (Strawson 1986) or at least inconsistent with a world very much like our own (Pereboom 2001). Smilansky (2000) takes a more complicated position, on which there are two ‘levels’ on which we may assess freedom, ‘compatibilist’ and ‘ultimate’. On the ultimate level of evaluation, free will is indeed incoherent. (Strawson, Pereboom, and Smilansky all provide concise defenses of their positions in Kane 2002.)
The will has also recently become a target of empirical study in neuroscience and cognitive psychology. Benjamin Libet (2002) conducted experiments designed to determine the timing of conscious willings or decisions to act in relation to brain activity associated with the physical initiation of behavior. Interpretation of the results is highly controversial. Libet himself concludes that the studies provide strong evidence that actions are already underway shortly before the agent wills to do it. As a result, we do not consciously initiate our actions, though he suggests that we might nonetheless retain the ability to veto actions that are initiated by unconscious psychological structures. Wegner (2002) masses a much range of studies (including those of Libet) to argue that the notion that human actions are ever initiated by their own conscious willings is simply a deeply-entrenched illusion and proceeds to offer an hypothesis concerning the reason this illusion is generated within our cognitive systems. O'Connor (forthcoming) argues that the data adduced by Libet and Wegner wholly fail to support their revisionary conclusions."
(emphasis mine)
I tend to believe in the underlined version of free will..
Do you really believe it was conceivable that Pharoah had any choice in the matter ? Do you really believe that the Lord did not have it all planned out to reveal Himself to the children of Israel through Pharoah's heart being hardened .
I have read enough of the scriptures over 30 years to see plain as daylight that God hardened the heart of Pharoah
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
It's kind of remarkable as i am writing this post while watching a movie(true story) called saints and soldiers , a bunch of Germans have just slaughtered innocent American troops in an ambush , one American then gets the weapon from a German soldier who has just killed a bunch of his buddies in cold blood then lets the German run free.
I think you need to re-think your thoughts to align with God's plan for man , rather than the spirit of religions plan for man.
Do you truly think that God needed Pharoah to accomplish anything? Or can you not understand that God foreknew Pharoah and his action and this gave him over to that which he was. As is most often the mistake made you focus on one statement and do not grasp it with the overall story of the Bible.
Again Adam sinned and made all of mankind to include yourself liable for sin. Adam could have not sinned and chosen God, but he didnt and thus God gave him over to that which he wanted.
Just like in the end when those who have sinned and not repented in Christ will be given over to that which they claim, a very faith in themselves. But as I said before it is there if you choose to accept it and if you truly want it. Or you can continue to believe God's glory is contingent on a absolute percentage or whole. Either way as others you place sin at the very feet of the Lord and it is peril to do so.
Do you truly think that God needed Pharoah to accomplish anything? Or can you not understand that God foreknew Pharoah and his action and this gave him over to that which he was. As is most often the mistake made you focus on one statement and do not grasp it with the overall story of the Bible.
Again Adam sinned and made all of mankind to include yourself liable for sin. Adam could have not sinned and chosen God, but he didnt and thus God gave him over to that which he wanted.
Just like in the end when those who have sinned and not repented in Christ will be given over to that which they claim, a very faith in themselves. But as I said before it is there if you choose to accept it and if you truly want it. Or you can continue to believe God's glory is contingent on a absolute percentage or whole. Either way as others you place sin at the very feet of the Lord and it is peril to do so.
God didn't need Pharoah in any way shape or form but there is no doubt that the scriptures prove that God raised Pharoah up to demonstrate is power in him.Romans 9 verse 17. Carry on my friend believing that you came to Christ on your own accord , you will never be at peace believing it though .
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